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Sept. 10, 2026

Zodiac: The Real Story by Dennis Kaufman

Zodiac: The Real Story by Dennis Kaufman
Zodiac: The Real Story by Dennis Kaufman
Hit the Road Jack: Finding The Zodiac
Zodiac: The Real Story by Dennis Kaufman

Dennis Kaufman retells his story that will live on through his work and investigation into Jack W. Tarrance, Jr. Dennis spent more than 15 years trying to get law enforcement to do their jobs. Media and law enforcement has made a mockery out of the system with false suspects and DNA test on people. The only questions left to ask is why didn’t they return any of Jack’s belongings, Dennis’ evidence against Jack, and why is this still a mystery while the media syndicate sluffs it all off?

Hit the Road Jack: Finding the Zodiac is broadcast live Fridays at 10AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Hit the Road Jack: Finding the Zodiac TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Hit the Road Jack: Finding the Zodiac Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

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0:06 Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Riders on the storm Riders on the storm Into this house we're born To this world we're thrown Like a dog without a bone An actor out alone Riders on the storm There's a killer on the road His brain is squirming like a toad Let your children play If you give this man a ride Sweet family will die Killer on the road.

2:00 The two victims were ordered out of the car and shot out of the car. Around San Francisco, the name Zodiac evokes darkness. It's scary and the murders are real. Four decades have done nothing to lessen the brutality of his crimes. Five point-blank executions by bullet and blade. There were multiple victims. From multiple areas. For two years, the Zodiac killed. Police are now convinced that it was the killer of a San Francisco cab driver who sent in a swatch of bloody cloth with a letter to the San Francisco Chronicle. Taunted police in a string of letters to local newspapers.

2:41 The Zodiac would write letters to the editor bragging of his exploits. Dear editor, this is the Zodiac. Then disappeared. X Identity has become the holy grail for a dedicated band of amateur sleuths. Over the years, thousands have taken up the hunt. We went hunting with a few of them. Hello! None more memorable than Dennis Kaufman. For him, unmasking the Zodiac is not a profession, but an obsession. I realize that a lot of people come forward and claim to know who the Zodiac is, and that makes it very difficult for me, because the bottom line is, I really do know who the Zodiac is. 1971 to 1974.

3:22 Dennis Kaufman spent eight years building a circumstantial case against his stepfather. He claims even accounts for the Zodiac's disappearance. Because we moved to Minnesota, then to Texas, and then back here. It started a month later. DNA tests are being done on letters and envelopes sent from Jack Torrance. They're not telling me everything either. All I know is that they want more items, so that's what we're doing. The FBI not closing the books on attempts to identify the Zodiac, the serial killer from the 1960s. Tonight claims there's a new connection between the FBI suspect and the Zodiac. Chris Pickle is live in the CBS 13 newsroom with the new developments. You've been following this one closely. Yes, I have. And a local document examiner now says she has been able to link the two, and that is all there in black and white.

4:08 I told them it was purely an entertainment value that I would even take a look at it. A case she wasn't interested in turned intriguing. Forensic document examiner Nanette Bardo let a pile of handwriting samples sit on her desk for two months. Once she started going through them, instead of discounting a connection, she reached a conclusion she never expected. My opinion, Jack is indeed the author of the Zodiac letters. Jack. Zodiac. A name that terrorized Northern California for almost a decade. He would murder and then write to Bay Area newspapers taking credit for his crimes. There have been many people over the years that have came forward claiming to know the identity of the Zodiac Killer.

4:53 It seems to be an obsession for people all over the world, and it only seems to grow with time. His reign of terror began in 1966, and after 1974, Zodiac vanished just as mysteriously as he appeared. My name is Dennis Kaufman. Join me in my journey for the truth. My name is Stephen Dewhurst. I'm an associate professor at Northern Arizona University. After investigating Dennis Kaufman's evidence and his case for his stepfather being the Zodiac Killer. At this point, I am completely convinced that Jack Terrence was in. Fact the Zodiac Killer and probably a.

5:33 Whole lot more. Just over a year after Mom's death in June of 2000, I was in Olympia, Washington, visiting my sister. While I was there, a show came on television called Case Reopened by Lawrence Block. It was a documentary about. The Zodiac Killer who had eluded police for over 30 years. As I was watching the show, The hair on my arm stood up. It's like every question I ever had was answered at that point. I knew exactly who they were talking about. Here is a photo of Jack in 1967. And this composite of the Zodiac was done in 1969. The photo of Jack was taken in 1973.

6:16 The Sonoma composite was done in 1975. Notice the lazy left eye. In July of 1969, Zodiac's communications to local Bay Area newspapers began. One went to the San Francisco Chronicle, another went to the San Francisco Examiner, and the third letter went to the Vallejo Times Herald. I took words from the Zodiac letters that he mailed to police, and I also took words from letters that Jack sent me over the years. The top row of words is Zodiac's writing.

6:57 and the road just beneath it is Jack's riding. You can see the similarities. The only difference I noticed in the riding. Was the letter A. If you look at the word page, you can see that the A's are different.

7:43 Jack sometimes forgets and writes the letter A like he did on the zodiac letters. The word at, and then we have the word age. Both of those A's are written like they are on the Zodiac letters. Then you have the word Dad, which is Jack's normal style of his A. In Zodiac's writing, we find the odd splitting of words. This is a letter that Zodiac sent to the San Francisco Chronicle in January of 1974. If you look at the word comedy on the second line, you see the COM, then it's split in half, and the IDY continues on the third line. There's plenty of room for that word to be written there. In Jack's writing, we find this same odd splitting of words. The word automatically is cut off, and the LY continues on the next line. Once again, there's plenty of room for that word to be written there.

8:40 Another odd characteristic about Zodiac's writing is the odd spacing in his words. We find these same odd characteristics in Jack's writing, the odd spacing in his words, insubordination, argumentative, disregards, etc. After studying both Zodiac letters and Jack's writing, you've come to the conclusion that Jack is the author of the Zodiac letters, correct? Absolutely. Yeah. And you are completely confident in your decision in that? Absolutely. With 55 matching identifying traits, I believe that's more traits than I would find in any one individual examination.

9:24 That I've ever completed. It is very compelling to indicate that that many matches would ensure an author match between the Zodiac letters and the writings of Jack Terrence. I remember the first time that I met Jack. I walked into the living room and he had his arm around my mother. And I walked over to him and I said, get your arm off of my mother. Well, he looked at me and he says, we need to have a talk. So he took me in the bedroom and he gave me a whooping. And he said, listen, he says, I don't want to be here any more than you want me here, but I have no choice. Well, I never knew what he meant by that until now.

10:10 This is Jack's hypnosis symbol in his own writing. Zodiac uses the same symbol. On March 19, 1971, Zodiac mailed this card to the San Francisco Chronicle. It was mailed from Pleasanton, California. The card is a rendition of an area in Lake Tahoe. This is where we were living at the time. Jack had a court date in San Jose, California the very same day that this postcard was mailed. He would have had to go right through Pleasanton on his way to court that day.

10:51 We were living in South Lake Tahoe. He would have took Highway 50 down through Sacramento, then on the 680 South, right through Pleasanton. This is where the letter was. Mailed that day, and this is where his court date was in San Jose. On March 17, 1974, Jack was arrested for poaching. On July the 8th, 1974, Zodiac mailed this letter from San Rafael, California. Just two days after this letter was mailed, on July 10th, 1974, Jack was sentenced to 30 days in a county jail for his poaching incident.

11:33 This is the first time that Jack had done any jail time. Zodiac was never heard from again. Is he capable of doing something like murder? Yes. Based on what I remember growing up, he has told enough stories that makes me think that he has committed murder. Hearing what I've heard, going out and committing cold-blooded murders, hard for. Me to believe. Is it possible? Yeah, probably. And all I remember is him pulling out.

12:14 A pocket knife and he stabbed somebody. And I just remember horrified because I had known mom didn't want us to see that. Now, what kind of statement is that? That was after he told me that him and Denny had killed that man in that cabin. So this is a story he told me him and Denny had done together in Northern California. Had burned a man alive in the cabin. People come up to me and say, Dennis. Why don't you move on with your life and get away from the Zodiac case? Well, the answer to that is simple.

13:13 In the kind of life You can hear the thunder Long before the storm But you can't hear the lion When he stalks his prey. He's moving like a shadow, creeping up on you. And like a siren's call, he's gonna. Have his way. You better run, forget your pride. Don't make a stand, just step aside.

14:05 If you don't have what it takes Don't try to play, you'll lose your. State Renewed by this at least It's the nature of the beast It's the nature of the beast You won't hear a footstep Coming up on you Moving like a snake, he's in complete control This killer knows his business. He is the predator. You are its only target. You're its only goal. What will you say?

14:47 What will you do? Your wildest. Nightmare is coming true. There is nothing you. Can say No way to change, he won't delay This guy. Will have his feast It's the nature of the beast It's the nature. Of the beast.

15:40 Most of the items I found in Jack's storage shed when I searched it in 2001 were found in this green metal box. In December of 1968, a white Chevy Impala was seen leaving the crime scene at the Lake Herman murders. During that time, Jack owned a white Chevy Impala. In September of 1969, Zodiac attacked a young couple on the shores of Lake Berryessa. Witnesses reported seeing an ice blue two-door Chevy Impala that day. Here's a photo of Jack in 1971 standing in front of his ice blue two-door Chevy Impala. This is Jack's hypnosis symbol in his own writings.

16:24 Zodiac uses the same symbol. Dr. Zodiac not ordinary criminal. He is man of great ego with disease known to science as pseudologia fantastica. Criminal egotist find pleasure in laughing at police. Jack was stationed at Treasure Island during the time this movie was playing there. In September of 1969, Zodiac attacked a couple on the shores of Lake Berryessa. At the crime scene, he left behind shoe impressions. Police were able to determine that they came from a rare military shoe called a wing walker. They were designed for walking on the wings of airplanes. Jack would have had access to these military shoes when he was a technical supply sergeant for the United States Air Force.

17:21 On June 3, 2003, I was at my cell phone store and Jack was there too and he found one of my guns that I had hidden in the back. Well, I saw him with a gun so I grabbed my pistol from underneath the counter and luckily my little brother was in between us because one of us probably would have shot each other. Well, just after this incident, a customer walked in named Tracy. She had been in my store prior to that and I knew she was married to a sheriff. And she walked in my store, and she could tell something was wrong. And I was trying to play it off so it wasn't obvious that something had just happened. And about that time, Jack came from the back and handed me something like a pencil. I don't remember what it was, but he handed me something.

18:06 And Tracy was like in shock. And she said, who is that man? I said, Tracy, you really want to know? And she said, yes, I do. So I told her. And she left. And there was three Sacramento sheriffs at my store within 20 minutes that she had sent down there. And they interviewed Jack. And this is her story. I noticed there was a man standing at the door, the back door, and he was just staring at me. And I looked up and I said, hi, how are you? And he just looked at me. He had no expression on his face whatsoever. It was very... eerie to say the least.

18:50 So, Dennis was saying, Tracy, could you please go get Ralph? Ralph is your ex-fiancee. He's a deputy sheriff. And I said, yes, I will, but what's going on here? And it was very weird. It was very scary. And I went to the parking lot, got in my car, and I called a news channel. I can't remember if it was 13. 3, or 10, but it is on file. Yes. And I said, are you close to a sheriff's station? I said, well, yeah. I drove to the service center. I walked in, and the lieutenant was in there, and I asked him, please go to the back with me. They all met me, and they followed me to the back. They knew me as.

19:31 Yeah. With Ralph and everything, exactly. And they sat down with me, and I was... petrified. They knew it. I told them the story. They got on. Their phones and they were, you know, questioning me about this and that. And they were, one of them, or Rick, was upset and saying, you know, this isn't cool. you know, to that effect, that if this guy is making this up, this is not okay. To tell the public that this person is the Zodiac Killer and making you this upset. Of course. And I remember telling him, you know what, I don't know so much about the Zodiac Killer, but I can tell you one thing. This man that was standing there looking at me made my skin crawl. It was unbelievable.

20:12 In February of 1999, my mother just had her leg amputated from just below the knee down due to diabetes. Well, after she had her leg amputated, I noticed a red spot, and it looked like it might be getting infected, so I didn't want to take any chances. So I talked her into going to the hospital and having it checked out. When we arrived at UC Davis Medical Center in Sacramento, the doctor agreed that she needed to stay for a few days watch it, make sure there was no infection, make sure the infection went away. Well, while she was in the hospital, she was there for about three days, and the doctor said she was okay to go home.

20:55 So we said we'd be there the next morning to pick her up, to take her home. And the next morning, she was found on the floor in a coma. Nobody knows what happened. While my mother was on life support, I went to the hospital to visit her, and to my surprise, I was wanted for terrorist threats that I did not make. I was barely able to make it out of the hospital without getting caught. So I sent my girlfriend Joy back down there to see what was going on. Come to find out, Jack, my stepdad, had called the hospital and said he was me. And he threatened to kill the security guards. I was wanted for terrorist threats, and my mother passed away before I was able to.

21:37 Clear that up. Okay, when I was in Washington and we were visiting Charles and Jack called me into his room and said, Mary, he says, I want to ask you something. I want to know if you really think that I killed Nora. And I said, well, Jack, all you have to do is search your conscience and if you have a clear conscience, then you don't have to worry about anything. The plan for Zodiac's bomb came from the schematic of a UP-15 teleprinter. These machines are used by ham radio operators.

22:19 Jack was a ham radio operator. The bomb diagram on the left is Zodiac's diagram and the bomb diagram on the right is one that I found in Jack's storage when I searched it in 2001. Just when you think you've waited that long I've spent some time to be alone I hope to see the place.

23:01 Once more. Zodiac case, we have three different composites from three different counties. We have the San Francisco composite that was done in 1969. Then we have the Sonoma County composite that was done in 1975. Napa County had their own composite, and it looked nothing like the others. Who was this. Mysterious man in this composite? This is Jack's oldest biological son, Denny.

23:45 I remember reading the letter that he had sent his dad from Vietnam. The letter ended with, Dad, you would love it over here. It's hunting season all year long. By March of 2001, I was fed up with the answers I was getting from different law enforcement agencies regarding Jack's involvement in the Zodiac case. So I decided I should call him just to see what he had to say. But before I called him, I had to find a way to make him feel comfortable about talking to me about his past. So what I did was, I told him I discovered who he was, and I wanted to write a book. But it wouldn't be published until he was dead. And he agreed to give me the information.

24:31 You know what I mean? I wouldn't want to... Well, after it's written as fiction, and after I'm gone. Uh for some days i don't think. It'll be long. Some days i feel like it'll be a long. Time 20 years from now huh yeah right right. I i understand i don't want to. Play anything out there that's going to bring a prosecution before you're gone you know that's not my intention you know yeah i just you know i just pick myself in the answer not not You know, just listen to you closer because I never in my years thought that, you know.

25:15 Most of the things I could deny and they have no proof. Right, it must be like circumstantial. Yeah. Right. Right. I'm not too worried about it. It's what the people I know would think. Right, right. I see what you're saying. Yeah, if it was a known fact, it was me.

26:11 On March 13th, 1971, Zodiac mailed this letter to the Los Angeles Times. It was mailed from Pleasanton, California. It says, this is the Zodiac speaking. Like I have always said, I am crack-proof. If the blue minis are ever going to catch me, they had better get off their fat asses and do something. Because the longer they fiddle and fart around, the more slaves I will collect for my afterlife. I do have to give them credit for stumbling across my Riverside activity, but they are only finding. The easy ones. There are a hell of a lot more down there. The reason that I am writing to the Times is this. They don't put me on their back pages like they did some of the others. San Francisco PD Zero, Zodiac 17+.

27:15 One month after the murder of Sherry Jo Bates, her killer sent this confession letter to the Daily Enterprise. The letter begins with, she was young and beautiful, but now she is battered and dead. She is not the first and she will not be the last. The killer claimed that he plunged the knife into her and it broke. Police also described the knife as being about three and a half inches long by a half inch wide with a broken and bent tip. Well, this is a knife that I found in Jack's storage shed when I searched it in 2001. Just six months after the murder of Sherry Jo Bates, Her killer sent three different letters. One of the letters went to the Riverside Police Department. It said Bates had to die. There will be more. Another letter went to Sherry Jo Bates' father, Joseph Bates. It said she had to die. There will be more also.

28:28 And the third letter that was mailed in April of 1967 went to the Press Enterprise in Riverside. communications to local Bay Area newspapers began. Just like in Riverside, he sent three different letters. It seems as though Zodiac is fascinated with time. Zodiac sent a map of Northern California to Bay Area newspapers, and over Mount Diablo he put his infamous symbol. But if you notice in his symbol, you see a 3, 6, and 9, just as if it was a watch face. This is the watch that was found at the Sherry Jo Bates crime scene in 1966 in Riverside, California. The murder took place at about 10.30 p.m., but this watch was stopped at 12.23 p.m. If we use Mount Diablo as the center point for the clock hands, the murder of Sherry Jo Bates would be at 1223.

29:35 When I asked Jack specifically if he was the Zodiac Killer, listen to what he had to say. I remember when we were younger, he would take us camping. And when we got to our camping spot, he would take his AM radio, his map, and his compass. What he would do is take his AM radio, and he'd find an AM station. He'd point the radio in that direction, and wherever the radio cut off at, he knew there was a station in that direction. He would take two stations and do that with, and he would take and draw a line and somehow pinpoint our location on the map.

30:21 I never understood why he did this until now. Kodiak ended one of his letters with, P.S., The Mount Diablo code concerns radians and inches along the radians. This killer was after something completely different. Zodiac also sent a map of the Bay Area, and over the top of Mount Diablo, he put his infamous symbol. Zodiac mentioned the word radians in his letter. But what exactly is a radian? A radian is an angle of 57.3 degrees. But what did this have to do with Zodiac.

31:08 And Mount Diablo? In 1980, a man by the name of Garth Penn made a pretty significant discovery. Garth Penn. Connected the Mir site of Paulstein in San Francisco to the top of Mount Diablo. Then he took the two known murder sites just outside Vallejo and connected them to Mount Diablo. He discovered that it made an angle of 57.3 degrees, a perfect radian. I took Penn's theory and went a step further. I connected the crime scene at Lake Berryessa to the top of Mount Diablo, and I realized that it made an odd angle of 16.2 degrees. I did not realize the significance yet at this point. I would later discover that six radians.

31:59 Plus 16.2 degrees make a complete circle. Mount Diablo is the center point for longitude and latitude. This here is the top of Mount Diablo. Center point for longitude and latitude. Here's the center point.

33:02 Feeling sparked and reasoned Something I just can't see Something dark and twisted But if you want to climb the mountain, sail the storm of tea. And if you want to walk through the valley.

34:03 Of the shadow of death, baby, take. A ride with me.

35:53 Probably the most famous of San Francisco homicide cases in terms of unsolved cases is a Zodiac case. and literally every day we receive some type of notification, a message in the mail or a phone call. Now we even get email messages regarding this case. And so it was decided that the case would be reactivated and assigned to an active homicide team. There's a subset of the population that is obsessed with the case. To some, it's like a religion. Yeah, appreciate it.

36:39 After Joy and I went to the FBI and they listened to our story and I turned Jack in, we both went back to our storage shed. We just kind of were very sad because at that point, I thought I was going to be putting Jack in prison. And my younger brother, Jack was his real dad, and he had just lost his mother. Now he's going to be taking his dad away from him too. Then the reality hit of what was really going on, I think, at that point. After about a year of dealing with the Zodiac thing, my girlfriend Joy couldn't take anymore, so she moved up to Washington State with her aunt and kind of got her own life going. I stayed behind because I had to work on a case. I felt obligated.

37:26 After about six months, I decided I had enough of the cases myself as well, and I went to Washington to pick. Up Joy to bring her back. Before I... could bring her back. I had to have something to bring her back to. So I talked to my uncle and he was going to help us start up a new cell phone store and help us get on our feet again. And he did. And in February of 2002, we got our business going, our cell phone store, had our own place for once, and everything was. Like it was before. I was actually happy again. I had left the Zodiac thing alone and we were making it. We were making money. Everything was good. But that was about to suddenly change.

38:12 Our business had been successful our first month. We were doing really good. We had our own place and everything was good. And out of the blue, Jack shows up at our front door from Texas. And I told him, Jack, you can't stay here. And he talked me into letting him stay one night. And the following day, he was to go to his brother's house. It was just down the road, his brother Don. And my biggest mistake was letting him stay that one night. After we all went to bed... we heard banging on the walls and Jack was banging on the walls and the neighbors were banging back and we were afraid we were going to lose our place that we'd just gotten. So I couldn't take anymore. I called the cops on Jack and told them that I wanted this man out of my house. Well, the cops took Jack outside and talked to him and it wasn't but two or three minutes before he had him convinced that he had dementia. So one of the cops came over to me and says, your dad suffers from dementia.

39:10 And there's nothing we can do. We can't remove him from your house. And I said, well, he's not welcome here. Then the police officer proceeded to tell me that not only can we not remove him from your house, if you kick him out, we're going to charge you with a felony for abandonment of an elderly person. At this point, I had enough. I went up to my room, and I grabbed my pistol. I couldn't take any more. He was not going to ruin my life again at this point. And Joy wound up running out the front door, and that was the last time I'd seen her. And now I'm stuck living with a man that murdered my mother.

39:51 And all of a sudden my life has did a 180 degree turn. Everything. Arthur Lee Allen did not donate the biological material that was recovered from the stamp or the zodiac correspondence that yielded this result. When you write, you rest the heel of your palm, a very characteristic part of it, on the paper. And People in those days weren't really aware that you could leave a palm print and that it could be identified. They knew about fingerprints, but the public really wasn't that aware of palm prints. They weren't able to obtain palm prints from Arthur Lee Allen. It was compared to the one that had been developed earlier, and they don't match.

40:34 That is not Arthur Allen's palm print. I worked with several law enforcement agencies on this case, trying to bring Jack Tarnes to justice. had fairly good cooperation with just about everyone that I worked with except for the San Francisco Police Department. I've never quite dealt with people like. Them but it's not a good thing when you're dealing with a murderer to be more worried about getting the credit for something you need to get this man off the streets that should be number one priority not who gets the credit.

41:14 For doing it. The options are this, identifying or eliminating a suspect as the Zodiac Killer. Tonight, CBS 13 has uncovered a major roadblock in the FBI's investigation. It's a lack of cooperation, not from a person like you might imagine, but from a police department. Chris Pickle is in the newsroom with. These new developments. Well, the FBI began collecting DNA evidence last year, and now we know why there are no results. The police agency that has most of the original evidence isn't sharing. Does it look like someone intentionally altered the letters? Absolutely. Dennis claims the changes began to appear after he showed his stepfather's handwriting to the San Francisco Police Department in 2001 and posted samples on the Internet. The team has uncovered what has been slowing down the FBI's investigation. the San Francisco Police Department. The FBI has been asking since 2000 for nine years to see the department's evidence. So far, they've been shut out. Come to San Francisco tomorrow and interview you regarding the Zodiac. The San Francisco Police Department denied our multiple phone and email requests for an interview, specifically asking if they will allow the FBI to examine their evidence. And although the department has shown the evidence to reporters in the past, our request to see what evidence the department still has were shot down. You know,

42:51 it kind of annoyed. Me, you know, as I told them initially, our laboratory was committed to a 30-day turnaround time. Right. So we would have been so much further ahead. than where we are now. Absolutely. But, you know, everyone, because it's. Such a high-profile deal, everyone wants to be the one, you know, to. Say, I was the one who solved this. Right. This was my case, and none of them. Right. And, you know, in other cases, they're all supposed to say that, hey, everybody worked together to solve it, and. Everybody's, you know. That's right. You know, what's wrong with that? And, you know, you run into this every now and then with these petty cops. I'm sure you do. The real person in here. Right.

43:31 There wasn't anything that Kelly Keller did that identified this guy as the Zodiac. It was because you. Had done your homework and you brought it in here. Right. This is the property that Jack owned in 1974. My partner Robert Manor and I decided to revisit this place and just have a look around and just see if we noticed anything. And when we got there, the owner was very cooperative. We explained to her what was going on. And at that point, we decided to run cadaver dogs across the property to see if they picked up any scent.

44:14 In January of 2008, we ran the cadaver dogs across the property, and they did pick up scent. We marked the locations where they picked up the scent at, and a couple weeks later we came out and we dug in those areas and we found what appeared to be human remains. These human remains have been turned over to the FBI for evaluation. Sometime around 1990, Jack asked me about this old piece of equipment that I had. He made the comment to me that if I ever get rid of it, that he wanted it. Well, at the time, I didn't give it much thought. Several years later, in 2005, He asked me about this same piece of equipment. And once again, I didn't give it much thought at the time.

44:59 A few years later, in 2008, I was going through my things, and I ran across this thing that he'd been asking about, this PA head. I was surprised that I still had it, because we'd been through a couple wrecks, and it was just amazing that I had it still. I decided to open it, but I had no idea what I was about to see. so so.

46:01 Thank you. Thank you.

47:29 So so. Thank you.

48:51 I haven't heard anybody in the room lately. Okay, well, it's all right. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. Thank you.

49:49 Thank you. so so.

51:22 Thank you.

52:19 Oh, oh, oh. Thank you.