Dennis Audio Calls with LE

0:00 Oh, oh, oh. Oh, oh, oh. Good morning, True Seekers and True Crime Junkies. Welcome back to another episode of Hit the Road Jack, Finding the Zodiac. I'd like to welcome Nolan Del Campo to the show. Good morning, everyone. Good morning. So it looks like you're going to entertain us this weekend with one of your friends that are in a band. Do we want to give a shout out to them?

0:42 Yeah, they're called Simple Solution. They're playing at the boardwalk not too far from your house. Right, right. You said eight o'clock on Saturday. Tomorrow, that is. Right. What type of genre? She's a dancer, a professional dancer. And so I said, well, my brother's a professional dancer. And she said, what's his name? I said, Mike Del Campo. And she said, he's one of my mentors. What? Yeah, she knows my brother really well. That's hilarious. Six degrees, right? Yeah. I just met this bartender named Loxy. She works at the Torch Club where they have live music. And she's from New Orleans. So I know this other bartender that goes to my main bar, the Old Tavern. And her name is Patty. And she's from New Orleans. So I mentioned Loxy to her. She says, I know Loxy from New Orleans.

1:42 It's a small world. Both transplants. Yeah. Well, we are going to be climbing right back into this law enforcement audio that we had from Dennis Kaufman. Of course, as I stated, even though I have the URLs up here, let's go ahead and throw up the PowerPoint presentation. There we go. I do have the URLs up here, but as discussed when I attempted clicking on them, it shows that they are broken, so they must have been removed from the Internet. Good thing we still have them for our show. And, of course, we are going to kind of just cover. So last week we left off on Ken Hitmeyer, and he had indicated that they still had a letter from Jack. And, of course, while they're making all the fuss about how the FBI could have gotten it done within 30 days, SFPD is claiming Kelly Carroll is stating that he didn't receive anything six months into what Dennis perceives to be SFPD in possession of Jack's letter and stalling on the DNA testing. And of course, we heard Kelly Carroll did not seem all that excited to hear from Dennis or want to jump into his evidence with him.

3:04 Right. Right. I mean, he sounded kind of blasé about the entire thing. I think he got more excited about Deborah Perez. Clearly giving her hundreds of hours, the fake suspect. Tell the truth. Right? Well, it makes you ponder. So, with the History Channel throwing up that Dennis Kaufman's evidence wasn't taken seriously, when the reality is, it seems the only people they take seriously is fakes and false suspects. It's so weird. I think they're kind of afraid of being exposed. It's such a terrible job. And now they don't want anyone to solve it.

3:51 That doesn't make any sense because Kelly Carroll.... Deborah Perez and people like that. I don't get it. Well, Kelly Carroll isn't from the time frame in which they failed to catch the killer, right? I mean, we're talking. It makes his office look bad, though. He's SFPD, Tosche. The whole bit. How? I mean, obviously, if they close the case, they're still winners. Right, that would make him look great. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't get it, like I said. It doesn't make any sense. The lackluster that he has for the evidence in this case, the testing of the DNA, something that could have simply helped Dennis to walk away from this thing six months in. We heard him saying it was the longest six months of his life, felt like six years. I'm pretty sure at that moment when he made that statement, he did not realize that he would still be in the heart of it for another 13 to 15 years. And of course, yeah, with the flip-flopping around and the missing evidence and the taking of evidence.

4:54 And sometimes I wish that he had sat down and cataloged it all, recorded it all, and then given it to one entity. And that entity that had the biggest bone, right. In the fight. And that just didn't happen. But So Ken hit Meyer says that they have another letter. And when I listened to that, it blows my mind because we hear Chris Hopkins saying we could do a turnaround on that envelope in 30 days. Well then why did you send it to SFPD to begin with? I mean, like you said, technically serial killings are FBI jurisdiction. So it's rather confusing the information you're being given by these entities. Um, And with that other letter that they had, if SFPD stalled for six months, nothing stopped the FBI from testing the other letter that they had. Right.

5:53 They have the best facilities for testing things like that. Why would they send it to San Francisco to have it tested when they could have done it themselves? Right. Oh, and even with the handwriting, when we submitted the handwriting to Quantico, they It was, gosh, a good 10 months. We weren't getting answers back. And we would get stall statements like, oh, the handwriting, the handwriting expert. Like there's only one in the whole FBI. The handwriting expert is working on a terrorist case, which is priority. Well, I get that. Absolutely. But wasn't the Zodiac also a terrorist? Yeah, domestic. Yeah. Yeah, isn't there still victims, family members waiting for answers in regards to their loved ones? I mean, come on. Anyways, we're gonna start this one out. This is Tom Connor of South Lake Tahoe PD. Of course, Dennis got him involved because of the Donna Lass matter and the fact that Jack had moved basically around the same exact time as Donna Lass had to South Lake Tahoe. Jack was in pictures with his daughter for Christmas time up there and she worked at the same casino as Donna Lass.

7:07 So we have that connectivity there. So let's go ahead and listen to this seven minute and 20 or seven. Yeah. Seven minute and 25 second audio with Tom Connor of South Lake Tahoe PD. Yeah, it is. Okay, I knew I got something wrong with that. I'll be able to email that to you. I was going to ask you, too, honestly. I mean, I know that Ken called you before, and Kelly called you in San Francisco, and they got probably... Honestly, just between me and you, I assure you that it's not going to get out, anything. They must have their results back, right? Because they're not, for some reason, they're not interested in the stuff I gathered.

7:49 I don't know why. Well, if you're talking about the DNA stuff, the evidence there, I don't know. Really? You know, I have. I called that Kelly Carroll guy. I think I told you this once before. I called him like four or five times there for a while. And I waited because he told me he was going to have it back about mid-February. And I waited until mid-March, giving him an extra month. Oh, he told you that too? Yeah. So I waited until like mid-March, giving him an extra month. of an extra month's leeway, figuring, you know, I know how this stuff works. You set up a time schedule, and it quite frequently takes you a lot longer than you thought it would. And I called him, and I, you know, didn't get any answer back. And then I waited a while, and I called him again. No answer back.

8:31 All I ever got was an answer machine. I called him like four or five times. And it wasn't until you, I don't remember if you called me or you called Ken or Ken called him or what, all of a sudden. They all called him. Yeah, this is that one day I got like four or five calls inside an hour. Right. And one of them was this guy, Kelly, in San Francisco. He said they still hadn't got it back yet. And then, you know, Ken also called me, and that's when he told me you were going to go to Texas and talk to Jack person to person and interview him. So, since then, I haven't heard from them. Really? So... Huh. What do you think is going on with it?

9:11 I have no idea. My best guess is one of two things. They don't have DNA evidence. They don't want to say so. Ah, right. Or they do have it in their. They're. Methodically, systematically going back and trying to get DNA from all the people they think did it, and they're comparing it. They don't want anybody to know that's what they're doing. Uh-huh. So that's my guesses, and that's all they are is guesses. Right. Yeah. I thought the same thing, that they might not, was not, might not able to obtain the DNA, but it's weird because my cousin, the sheriff in town, heard the same thing, but they didn't get it. Right around the same time that you had said you had heard it, and. I heard, if I remember right, it was like I was talking to an investigator It was a female investigator, wherever it was. For some reason, I'm thinking Vallejo, but it might have been... Sonoma County or someplace, one of those areas up there. And she had told me that her boss, see this is all like six hands interruption, you know, so you can't count on it. She had told me that her boss knew a judge who was a judge in San Francisco and the judge told her boss that they already had the DNA evidence and they were already checking it against Arthur Lee Allen. Uh-huh. So, I mean, that was back in February, I think, February or March. Was it? Yeah. Uh-huh. That I got told that. But, you know, I can't verify it.

10:38 In a normal situation, I'm sure, among law enforcement, they are glad to share certain information. But with a case like this, it's a whole different story, I'm sure. Yeah. Well, and there's a lot of reasons for it, one of them being it's a high-profile case. Right. You never know who, when you start letting information out like that, who's going to leak it. Right. There are certain times when you just can't have that kind of stuff going on, just like with our drug task force. When I was over there, now the guys that are over there, they don't tell patrol or anybody over here what you're doing. Oh, you guys have no idea what he's doing now? No. I don't know what they're doing over at the drug task force. They don't tell me who they're working with. And, you know, because I might just accidentally talk to somebody who tells their wife, who knows somebody, and next thing you know, everybody's got the cap out of their bag. Right, they're tipped off before they're there. So they do it for that reason. The other reason is they don't want somebody else to get to glory before they do.

11:32 Right. Well, that's what's with this case. That's what's with this case. Some cops are like that. Me, I can give a shit. I'll give them everything I got gladly. I can tell. You know, honestly. You be the hero. Yeah. Leave me out of it. I don't want people. You know what would happen if I were to solve this case by accident or luck or skill or whatever you want to call it? What would happen is I would be deluged with reporters and newscasters, and I don't want that shit. Exactly. I can tell you that type. And Kelly is a different story, though. Could be. And, you know, I'm not talking bad about people, but I'm just saying that I wish you were working there, so we'd probably have the same time. But, you know, I don't know. I just got to know stuff pretty soon, because, I mean, for some reason, they're not interested in this gentleman.

12:17 That really makes me wonder, because... What do you mean, Ken is or San Francisco is? Well, see, what Ken is, I told Ken, I called CI and I myself, and I asked them if an individual can submit evidence, and they said no. It's got to be from a law enforcement agency. I said, okay. So I said, now, does the agency have to be, in other words, does they have to turn in original Zodiac letters to be compared to in this? Yes. Well, I called Ken and I told him what happened. And he said he could submit the evidence for me, but I don't see how he could because he don't have none of the original letters. So it wouldn't work. He said he thought they had copies. I said, no, they don't have copies. They need to do it from the originals. So once again, there I am stuck with Kelly Carroll again and the Vallejo Police.

12:58 Did you send all those letters that you obtained to Kelly Carroll? No, I haven't yet because I sent him some over the email and he wrote me back and he said that he would print them and then have them analyzed. But how can you have a copy analyzed? As far as I know, they always want the original. Right. Yeah, but what he could do with that is they could look at him and say, hey, this is close enough. We should look at the originals. Okay, they can kind of get an idea. Yeah, I mean, it's not nothing. You know, if you're going to try to use this in court as evidence to convict somebody, you better have the originals. Right, okay. But you can. work off a copy just to get a ballpark idea of whether you're close or not. If the handwriting's way off, they're going to say, this ain't even close, don't bother.

13:45 If it's close, they'll say, hey, guess what? I should bring that stuff in here. Okay, gotcha, that makes sense. I mean, again, that's my guess. No, you're probably right, that makes sense. So that's what it is. Okay, well, he did drive him back, and him and Mike Maloney, I guess, is the guy's name, his partner's name. But anyway... Okay. Well, I'll email this stuff to you. I just hope somebody can get something on him soon because I was thinking about. Hey, if you got him to answer your email and you got to send that stuff and you're getting further ahead with him than I was. I guess so, huh? Don't get discouraged, pal. Okay. Well, hey, if you can come up with an idea how to... You know, I know it's Jack and it's just like, how do you prove if you can come up with an idea?

14:28 Man, I'm all ears. You got any more ideas? Whatever. Okay. I'm game. Send me your stuff And if it gets through I'll send you a reply so you know that I got it Appreciate that, that would be great Alright, so I'll talk to you soon man Okay, bye. So Okay, I'm a little confused Mostly About him saying send him the stuff The handwriting, I'm assuming, right? I guess But we're talking a lot about DNA stuff too Yeah, but they. Wouldn't send them DNA because they have no DNA. I mean, there were cigarette butts involved with the Donna Laff stuff.

15:11 Good morning, Lindsay. Good morning. Real quick, who was he talking to just now? I know it was Dennis. Dennis was talking to Tom Connor. He is a police officer with the South Lake Tahoe PD. Okay. And he's a real straight shooter. I like the guy. Yeah, he was. Yeah, he didn't seem to be messing around with things as much as the FBI was with Dennis. I wanted to feel like the FBI was on Dennis' side because that's the way they made it appear. But it sounded to me like they were doing a lot of double talk, whereas Tom is like, you know what, let's just do this. Let's just get it done. I want to make a couple statements. Again, why wasn't Jack ruled out if they did have DNA? How did they rule out the other suspects with Harry Phillips on 2020 when they did Arthur Lee Allen and the other seven suspects, which included most of whom's on Tom Voight's board as a possible suspect and ruled all of them out? If they could rule all of them out, how come they couldn't rule out Jack? I mean, it's a valid question, right?

16:23 It's like they wouldn't even touch his stuff. Anything to do with anything to do with Jack, they didn't want to touch it. Exactly. And how did my mentor, who was putting out a fake suspect, Deborah Perez, know about Dennis? When I called him to say, hey, this guy's calling me about this really old case of unsolved murders. And he already knew who Dennis Kaufman was. How does the industry know about Dennis Kaufman? He's clearly not made documentaries yet. He's not gone and done... He's probably done some news. Feeds, I would think, up at that point. But even then, how is it that my mentor is following Dennis and then proclaims that Jack isn't what they're looking for as far as intelligence is concerned? Because I explained him as a security guard for Hewlett-Packard when I really didn't quite understand.

17:21 He was contract security, had a vast background that makes him qualified for being the Zodiac. So all these questions come up. And how did they get all the DNA from the others? That blows my mind. You've got eight people who are dead, and you have all their DNA? Some of them were not convicted people, like Arthur Lee Allen was. Well, I guess maybe it depends on if they had a previous record, they could have had it. When did they start taking DNA as a protocol for felons, Nolan? Do you know? Probably the early 90s.

18:02 Okay, so most of these people were from 60s, 70s, right? I mean, and I didn't see that many of them had records. Yeah, that's a good question. Right. My next question that boggles me always, and because you and I, Nolan, have tried to get in to visit Peter Wilson in regards to his case, and they want us to be media if we're going to interview or record or do anything like that. So how is it that people like Harry Phillips and 20 on 20 and all of these media syndicates get access to evidence and the items necessary to complete these DNA tests. Isn't that a breaking of the chain of custody?

18:50 Well, I think that that would go to, towards, you know, a FOIA, like anybody could FOIA, like, you know, anybody could FOIA. You can FOIA DNA. Yep. Oh, well, not DNA. Okay. This is what I'm saying. So how is it that the mass rich elite media for entertainment purposes is capable of getting their hands on items to complete tests such as DNA? How did they acquire the other eight people? And why did Harry Phillips say we tested the other eight because we knew they weren't the Zodiac when I asked them why they didn't have results for Jack? that very moment dennis has turned him in when they're doing this whole entire you know testing and show so they get all of the reviews and the the the credit for excluding these eight people but why again are they avoiding Jack?

19:48 Yeah. I wonder if your mentor had something to do with that. Yeah. I know, because he's right up there with all of them. So, originals. As it pertains to originals, we're listening to Tom Connor say that if you're going to go to court, you better have the originals. That's not true. 99% of my cases, I am not working off of the original. If somebody has committed a forgery, I don't need an original to show you that the handwriting isn't what it should be, and the memory movement doesn't match the person or the suspect that it's supposed to. I mean, it helps to have the original, but if you don't have. It, you don't have it.

20:28 Yeah, I think it goes down to, like, you know, what judge you're going to be facing, what judge is going to be, you know, working the case, and it goes down to, like, you know, like... Like Nolan said, it might be a little bit better if you have it. But, you know, I think you kind of just have to, like, ballpark it, you know, depending on the case and the judge and the court and the state and, you know, where it's at. Like, you know, all of it together. I mean, 70% of my cases are in probate. And I would say, like I said, 99% of them I have not seen the original. I go to court. I testify before any judge. And decisions are made in regards to people's inheritances and their livelihood based on this. I mean, people are paying thousands and thousands.

21:15 Have they ever asked you for the original? Have you? Just for instance, like in a case, have they like, so just like for instance, in a case you're presenting a copy of some handwriting to the judge, has the judge or possibly, you know, the other parties involved asked for any originals before? I always ask for the original. If it's in regards to a probate case, typically speaking, the will would be lodged with the court. So I'm capable of going to the court and doing an examination of that original. I find that the original is only necessary when I'm authenticating it. So if my client comes to me and says, I need your opinion to support to the court that my father signed this trust agreement. Then I have to 100% see the original in order to determine the presence of wet ink. Because now it's authenticated versus just an identification.

22:07 And in this day and age of technological cut and paste or digital cut and paste, you are literally... required, basically, to see that wedding. But most people aren't coming to me because it's an original good signature. Most people are coming to me because they don't think dad's will was signed by dad. And in that case, I don't require the original to show that the memory movement is opposite to what we expect to see coming from that individual. The originals, you can just blow that one right out of the water. Also, you wouldn't want to give away.

22:50 Another thing that I think of is you wouldn't want to give away that original to the court because it could get lost. No. The courts don't seem to lose things. The party is supposed to lodge the original with the court, retain a certified copy. Yes. You have to lodge the original. Now, a trust does not have to be lodged. A trust. around the probate system unless there's somebody contesting it, forcing it into a probate action. But the original is always going to be lodged. I've actually even seen a judge decide on a will that was a copy because it was the only source that anybody had.

23:35 Right. And I mean, everything on the outside. Well, it's just like your birth certificate. Well, I have a case in Placid County right now where people are pointing the finger at each other as to who has the original. And they have a copy. But nobody's coming up with the original. And the copy itself says, this original is supposed to be put in a safe deposit box. Well, the deceased had a safe deposit box, and the ex-wife had the key to it, but she's saying she doesn't have the will. And she's saying, no. My client has the will. My client doesn't have the will. She never had access to the safe deposit box.

24:16 Right. So anyway. Play the who's on first, who's got the ball, just like law enforcement here. And if the court can make that decision based on a copy of a will, we can certainly, I mean, to the extent of losing, the courts don't tend to lose things like the police department having these cases. I did have to spend a couple hours and then come back one day for, I think it was Marin County, for a will that we couldn't locate because the matter was being heard. So the will was up and down on all different kinds of floors doing all kinds of things, back to the judge, back to the probate department. And they had to track it down, but it wasn't lost. We certainly were able to get it once we figured out whose hands it was in. So, yeah, the loss of stuff is mind-boggling in these cases. We're going to see— I' m sorry, our next audio file is with Steve Brown from Sonoma County PD, and he is talking about missing items from the victims. So when we see— the finale letter to Tim Miller that states you could look for, you could search for my clues. These, I think, are the things that they're talking about. So let's go ahead and play Steve Brown, Sonoma PD.

25:35 I've been in contact with Tom Connor from Lake Tahoe Police. Lake Tahoe, and who else? FBI, can't hit my name, Chris Hopkins. Ken what? Hitmeyer. H-I-T-T-M-E-I-E-R. And he works for FDI? Yeah, exactly. What's the guy's name? Chris Hopkins. That guy or who? That's a guy too. He's head of the evidence response team here.

26:16 And who else? That's about it. Okay. And then when you contact the FBI guys, what are they saying? They're saying they've turned it over to the counties that they've happened in, and it's their case now. You know, I don't know if they've turned it over for prosecution, if they've got DNA and it matched my dad's, and it's not saying. I don't know. Well, you know, I talked to somebody, and they didn't get DNA off the letters that were sent to the paper. Okay. So. That's probably why they don't get back to you, because there is none. That's what I figured, too. I thought that might be the case. What other shit did you find in storage? Do you have a list? Yeah, I've got updates for you. Or if I gave you a list of.

26:58 What some of our victims are missing? I still got everything here. I haven't gotten rid of nothing. Was there any girl stuff, girl jewelry or anything? Yeah, there was. Yeah, there was. I didn't know if it was my mom's. I didn't even think about jewelry. Do you have it? I've got some of it. Yeah, I couldn't get everything out of storage. The reason I had to go down and get it is because it was storage's aunt's house in Arizona. She was getting ready to get rid of it. He had owed her like $ 800 on it. So me and her friend went down there. We gave her a couple hundred dollars, and she let us take what we could fit in the trailer. We pretty much had to leave the rest. So I hope I didn't leave anything good. I hope I didn't. Where do you live at?

27:38 I'm in Sacramento right now. What's your address? It's 79-41... Holly Drive. H-O-L-L-Y. Yeah. And that's actually in Citrus Heights. I know where that is. Okay. Yeah, I've got a list. I'll have to pull it out of our files. Maybe we can compare it and see what the hell we have. Yeah, because I've got everything sitting here in a pile that I got, so. If there's something in there that might matter. You can mop me up on my bus. I don't know. I mean, it's not a problem of me showing you a list of what I have. Okay. What's it hurt? Yeah. You know, if there's something there that's great. If not, it's all right.

28:19 What's it hurt? You know, I hate to throw something away that would be a key thing, you know. Exactly. All right. Well, I'll get a hold of you later in the week. Okay. And I'll let you know. That sounds good. All right, then. All right. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you. Okay. Bye. Bye. Okay. Now, beg so many more questions. Re-listening to these things really kind of draw questions out in me. Steve Brown said he was told there was no DNA on the letters by which to test. So what did they test? What DNA did they have to test for Harry Phillips 20 on 20? Or was that whole entire thing just a charade? Right.

29:03 Well, and how is there not DNA on a letter? There's got to be some. I mean, you know, everyone don't just handle a letter with gloves or anything. I mean, but the Zodiac showed the propensity to understand the available law enforcement techniques that could get him hemmed up. I mean, if he's using a spittoon full of people's spit to seal his letters, then yes, I can understand that they couldn't break apart a DNA profile in order to compare that. But we heard Harry Phillips on 20. 20 on 20 rule out eight people. What DNA did they rule.

29:43 Them out on? Right. Who knows? So confusing. But Steve Brown, obviously, again, another willing participant interested in what Dennis has. And again, I have no, I never spoke to him. That was one agency that Dennis and I never attempted to go to because the hitchhiker murders in Sonoma County did not have... handwriting involved but it did have missing pieces of jewelry which were found in that that um ammo can that most of the items like the bent over tip of the pilot razor pen that looked like it had been extraordinarily used very very um hard loved To say the least, why would anybody keep a dried up old Pilot Razor pen?

30:30 I mean, usually you throw it away when it's dead. This pen meant something to Jack and is coupled with pieces. It was like one of a set of an earring. And there were multiple earrings, which I showed back in the presentation for that time frame. So, more questions than answers. All right. Well, we've got. There were lots of odd trinkets that came across in Jack's stories. Well, yeah, I was just thinking that, like Dennis said, he said, well, I hope I didn't miss anything, but why couldn't he get all of it? If it was me, I would have a group of people bring their trucks.

31:10 And whatever that could be. I would create some type of fund and whatever I need to pay and whatever trucks I needed, I'd have it rallied up to make sure I got every little thing. Tiny inch and tiny piece. Right. It's odd that he had access and got some of it but didn't get. All of it. It almost seemed like he wasn't allowed to get all of it. He was rushed to get it. She was willing to take a few hundred, obviously, like a good debt collector lets mitigate our losses by taking what we can get. But I mean, honestly speaking, if she was willing to take a few hundred, I'm sure she would have sat on those items for a bit longer if it took time to appropriately act and bring the right truck or trailer or whatever you needed.

32:02 Yeah. To get everything. Yeah. And Dennis clearly didn't have any clue what he was sitting on and what the possibility of any of the items would have meant as far as evidence is concerned. It took him eight years to figure out what was in the PA system, the hood. Eight years. He's sitting on this PA system while Jack's saying, don't get rid of it. If you ever get rid of it, make sure you give it back to me. And it takes him eight years to figure out that there's evidence in it. So I can't... I bet he lost a lot of good stuff in that. Man, that could have sealed the deal about solving this thing. Right? If we had just more stuff. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not, but.

32:43 Is there like a chain of custody for the remaining items? Well, I mean, only turn it over. And if something happened to be one of the victims, like that could be confirmed through the police files that, you know, they were missing a necklace or missing a bracelet or missing an earring or, you know, whatever those items were. And, and we know that there was another aunt in Texas. So this aunt that had this storage shed in Arizona, there was another aunt in Texas that, That also held some of Jack's belongings that she tossed because she never thought she was going to see him again. And when Jack showed up in September of 2005 to collect those belongings, that's on the onset of Dennis telling him nobody's paying attention. They don't believe me. They don't think you're the real deal.

33:25 And I think that he struck out to that aunt's house purposely to pick up what he knew would have been evidence. And the aunt had already thrown it away. Wow. But also, since Dennis turned over the FBI, they won't give back, right? No, they won't give back. They haven't excluded Jack once again. You know, where's this exclusion to help Dennis to move on if Jack truly isn't it? He has never gotten a one word from any law enforcement agency, to my knowledge, that said, we have ruled Jack out. You can move on. So are you right? I would be the same way. I would never be able to move on. I would literally die. Yeah. How do you move Jack out?

34:07 Yeah, it should be a simple process. If you guys can show us in any way, shape or form that Jack couldn't possibly have been the person, but not one, not one person. And the entire time I have been researching, investigating this case. Not Tom Voight, not Bart Baggett, not anybody has been able to come forward with any evidence that says not Jake Wark, not Oren Shack, not Ward. I mean, there's so many people that have been against Dennis and Jack as a suspect, but not one of them can present one piece of evidence that would show or support that Jack couldn't possibly be the Zodiac. Not one. Our next audio is Kelly Carroll from SFPD discussing the palm print.

34:50 Yeah, he had done a move. What do you need right now, today? Okay, what I need is, would you guys be willing to... He's got Jack's palm prints already. Now, they need to be compared. How does he have them? Huh? How did he get them? I don't know how he got them, but he's got them. So, of course, we catch. Dennis, right?

35:35 Playing loose with information. How did he get the palm print? And he's referring to Steve Brown of the Sonoma County PD who is in possession of the palm print. And Kelly Carroll is like, you don't know how he got it? I feel like he basically called Dennis out on that one. But he is alluding to the fact that yes, there is a palm print. He didn't come back like Tom Connor who said there wasn't any DNA on the letters or there was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He literally said, yeah, we can get that compared. Have him give me a call. So where's the results from that palm print? Inconclusive or otherwise? Yeah. Our next audio is Steve Brown from Sonoma County PD on the palm print as well.

36:20 I mean, if they're willing to let you go there, well, I mean, if they're going to pay for it, well, yeah, it's just that, you know, once I go there, then if I was to go back there, You know what I'm saying? I was thinking about holding them off until Christmas, maybe. Yeah, that's a better idea, actually. If I held them off until Christmas, and that would give us time to do this other stuff. Right. Okay. Because we should know, if I can hold Kelly, Carol, and they're willing to compare those prints I got, and not treat, you know, he's going to ask me, what are you even involved in? That's exactly what he's going to ask you. I don't care. I'm going to say, hey, you know what? We have seven dead girls in this county at the same time.

37:01 That's right. We don't know who killed them. And in fact, they credited the Zodiac. Whether he did it or. Not, I don't know. But that's what I'm trying to find out. That's right. That's what I told them. I said, you guys have more homicides in their county than you do. Well, San Francisco has one, right? They only got one. You have seven of them. The only thing San Francisco had was all the letters to the paper. Exactly right. Yeah, just because he sent letters there doesn't mean he didn't kill the seven girls in your county at all. No, it doesn't. And the thing is, you have. A composite of the man from your county, and it matches my stepdad. Right. It's a dead ringer. Right. You have just as much evidence as they do as far as that goes. Yeah, I'm not worried about them. I can handle those guys. I...

37:43 I know you can, man. Fuck it, I'm not worried about it. I'll just say, you know what? Either work with me and let me try and compare it or fuck it, I'll go somewhere else and get it. I don't need their shit. I'll give you a call tomorrow. If I get a hold of him, I'll call you tomorrow for sure. Okay, Steve, I appreciate it, man. I'm behind you 100%. Whatever you decide to do, man, it's our call. All right, and hopefully I'll talk to you tomorrow with an answer from him. Okay. All right. Good enough, man. Thanks for calling. Later, Dan. Okay. Bye-bye. All right. Okay. Real quick. It says Steve Brown, Sonoma County Police Department. But the counties don't have police departments. They have sheriff departments. Cities have police departments. So is he with, like, Santa Rosa Police Department? Or is he a sheriff?

38:32 I thought he was with Sonoma County, and he may be a sheriff. I may have it listed incorrectly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That may very well be. More importantly, let's take note to the fact that the Sonoma County composite is legit. Yes. We just heard from Steve Brown. So Tom Voight and these other jack wagons attempted to downplay the composite from Sonoma County as though it was just done by some random person boohooing out there to, you know, spruce up. albeit it is a dead ringer for Jack. And I mean dead ringer, not a possible mm. I mean, we're going to see these composites when we go through the information that matches and suggests that Jack's the best suspect.

39:14 But now we hear a sheriff, whoever he is, admitting with Dennis that the composite is a dead ringer that they have for Sonoma County. And he points out what most people see as obvious that people don't seem to realize, they had seven murder victims. San Francisco had at most two. I think there were more, obviously, because the Zodiac claimed he wasn't going to tell him when he killed anymore. He's going to make it look like accidents and or fake accidents and and otherwise. So I think that there were probably and I think they attributed a lot more crimes than we know to the Zodiac, which is why I just slumped in every single unsolved murder across the time frame.

39:57 Mm hmm. We got about nine minutes and I have about six more minutes of audio. So let's get into Tom Connor again. Well, I was just going to say real quick. I have basically nine minutes. Can you hold your thoughts? Let me get through these. We have six minutes. That'll give us three minutes at the end. All right. So this one is Tom Connor, South Lake Tahoe PD, and it's the palm print and information about Kathleen Johns. Well, all I want is somebody that If they've got some kind of rapport or in or any of that kind of stuff, well, they can talk to those guys and get a straight-up answer. You know? Yeah. That's all I'm looking for. So you really don't have one, huh?

40:38 No, I don't. You really don't? No. That's weird. I really thought you were just being hushed, but I really think you don't have one either. No. They have not told me one way or the other. Last night, you know, they told me... They were working on it. First of all, they told me they were working on it and wouldn't have an answer by mid-February. Right. Okay, so I waited until mid-March before I bugged them about it. You know, things go wrong, you get off schedule. And then I didn't get calls for a long, long time. And then I think it was around May or June when you told... hit Meyer that you were going to run down there and stirred up all that shit. Yeah. Carol called me. Yeah. And he told me at that time they still didn't have an answer. Yeah. So I'm going, yeah, this is bullshit.

41:22 Right. So, you know, whatever. Yeah. I mean, the guy just, I can't make the guy tell me. Right. Well, I just figured some, you know, when I, that one day, when they both called you real quick, I figured something was going on because they both called you real quick to either tell you, don't tell Dennis. This or something, you know. Well, you stirred the shit. I got to give you that. Ah, I got some reactions anyway. The phone started ringing. Yeah, well, I don't know what the big deal is about going down to San Jack if they're really not, you know, so obviously something's going on. You know, it was then. I don't know how. Well, like I said, if this guy has some kind of working relationship with them, where they'll talk to him. You know, I would like him to call me or, you know, give me an answer. So I'm not spinning my wheels anymore. Exactly.

42:03 Well, be honest with you, he was here the other day. He actually came to the house, the sergeant did. Yeah. And we spent five hours here going through this stuff. And he was just... Didn't believe it. Good. He was just shocked. He just says, he just can't believe that, you know, that these guys aren't running with this because, you know, he's been, he's been, you know, he's been Allen has been a suspect for a long time. Right. And he admitted, I mean, that he had, Allen doesn't even compare to Jack. I mean. The similarity is incredible. Like I said, he spent five hours going over this stuff. He said, I'm going to get that print. I'm going to check it out myself. You talked to him about showing Kathleen Johns that video and see if he'd be interested in sitting there. while it happens. And if it is, I can get in touch with her and you have him call me and I'll try to arrange that.

42:51 Okay. All right. And if he wants to come up here, I'll sit in with it too. Sure. I mean, he's the guy that has the strongest case it sounds like. Well, just because so many, and this is in a county that the Zodiac hasn't even known they kept committing any crimes in, really. Yeah. It was just the fact that one of the radios went through there, and there was a lot of unsolved homicides. In there, and they didn't have any answers for them. Yeah. He said this is the best thing he's heard. I mean, it makes total sense to him. Well, whatever. Like I said, you know, talk to him, see what he says, and we'll go from there. Okay. Do you know what area Kathleen Johns is in? I mean, is she like up by you? You know, they. I'm trying to remember whether she's in San Jose or whether she's in another... Because the sister called me, and she went down and actually talked to... Excuse me, I was eavesdropping on somebody else's conversation. Oh, okay. Because I heard my name came up. But anyway, she talked to.

43:53 A gal named Pam Huckabee, a gal named Linda Bowman, and both those people are sisters to Darlene Farrin. Yeah, I talked to Pam before myself. And then she also talked to Kathleen Johns. Now, we did three of them. One lives in San Jose, one lives in Oregon, and one lives... somewhere else down there in the Bay Area, and I forget exactly where at the moment. I see. Okay, so they're not up in your area then? No, none of them live up here. Okay. Yeah, I'll talk to him, see what he says, and I'll put him in touch with you. You'll keep me informed if I put him in touch with you? Oh, yeah. Okay. I've got nothing to hide from you. I know you know. You know how the FBI is kind of real secretive about what they do and stuff.

44:36 Yeah, they do that for good reasons. Sometimes we do, you know, in the but right at the moment I've got nothing to hide from you and this wouldn't be I mean you're a cooperative witness why would I not cooperate with you right yeah that's true it doesn't work that way. Yeah well I could I could tell you the only reason I did that of course because I get so frustrated because like I can't get an answer from San Francisco yeah and it's like you know I feel like I have to do something you know that's the only reason but as. Long as I'm informed hey I I ain't saying nothing to nobody. Okay. It works, you know. So, you know, as long as you understand that, I don't mind putting you in touch with that officer, you know. Okay. He just asked me not to say who he. Was, so, you know, I got to respect that. Yeah, and I respect that also. Okay. And if he says I don't want to let him know, that's fine. Okay. But, you know, if he wants to talk to me, he can talk to me. Okay. All righty.

45:23 All right, Tom, we'll talk to you soon, man. All right. Okay, bye-bye. Bye-bye. Okay, and we're going to follow that up with one quick audio call on Kathleen Johns with Tom Connor from South Lake Tahoe PD again. Did you ever get in touch with... Oh, he said he would go with me to show... Kathleen Johnson. Yeah. Good. Good. You know, I talked to Donna Lass's sister today about that. She thought it was a real good idea. So I'm going to try to get Kathleen Johnson to call and see if she's receptive to it. Okay. And I'll call you back and let you know where she's at. Okay. And then we can go from there. Did you figure out what area she's in? You know, right now, we've been, we had another day of shooting and stuff, so. Did you?

46:06 I've been busy. But, uh, anyway, um, Okay. I'm working on something right at the moment, but I think I'll be done with that in just a minute or two. Are you at home? Yeah. That number real quick so I don't have to look it up. 916-79-4251. Okay. I'll try to look it up and let you know what area she's in. Okay. Appreciate it. Talk to you later. Okay. Bye-bye. Okay, so there's everybody's proof when I stated and have maintained this entire time that they attempted to show Kathleen Johns the audio or the video of Jack and listened.

46:49 They wanted her to view him and to hear him speak. And when Dennis was put up the night before, I believe in the Sonoma County area in order to facilitate this, he woke up in the morning and found out Kathleen Johns had passed from a heart attack that night. That's mysterious as hell. But we have validation here that Kathleen Johns was being attempted to be contacted in regards to all of this. So go ahead. Didn't your parents. Live in Sonoma County in Petaluma? What's that? Kathleen Johns' parents. I'm pretty sure they lived in Petaluma. Yeah, I think that was the area or roundabout area. Lindsay, you had something to say before we started these last two audios?

47:37 Yeah, so I was just going to, so yeah, so the one before the last two, I was just going to say how nonchalant, how just like relaxed, like, you know, cool, like shit talking kind of like combo that he has with Dennis is kind of crazy to me. They bonded. I mean, they clearly bonded over the evidence that he saw. And I think he's frustrated, too, that other law enforcement isn't really taking him seriously. And everybody keeps referring to the SFPD as those guys. It's supposed to be us guys. Law enforcement is supposed to be us, not those. And that made me think of youse guys.

48:22 Right. Nothing more than mob and syndicate, right? They're going to go rogue and do it the way they want and not participate and not help or assist. So we're still sitting on this whole concept that we don't know whether or not this palm print ever got looked at. No decision on whether or not it matched or excluded Jack. So again, we're left in limbo. And why do they have to have a working relationship? Tom Conner keeps saying, if you know somebody who has a working relationship with these guys, that would get them on board to talk with me. And why should that be a thing? I mean, you're really showing us how incompetent our law enforcement is, even in the year 2000, right? 2000, this is probably, I'm going to guess around 2001, 2002, somewhere around there.

49:16 I mean, not too long ago, we are still hearing that our law enforcement cannot play nice together. All right, well, that is good. And why is everyone else ignoring what happened in Sonoma County? It's seven murders. Exactly. Exactly. And still don't have answers for that. But here are all the URLs and the different audio files that we have. We are at the end of the show with just a couple seconds left here. Next week, we're going to hear one of Dennis's documentary. The following week, we'll hear his second documentary. And then on the third week, I will be back to bring alive all of the evidence that supports Jack as a perfect suspect for the Zodiac.

49:57 You all take care. Thank you, Lindsay and Nolan, for being here. Have a great weekend, and we'll see you in three weeks from now. See you soon.