My Experiences with the Zodiac Killer Case

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0:52 Good morning, True seekers and true crime junkies. Welcome back to another episode of Hit the Roadjack Finding the Zodiac. I'd like to welcome from the other room of my house today, Nolan del Campo. Good morning, everybody. Good morning, Oh my goodness, we are finally at I mean, this is the only statement for the slide that is on here today, and that is that Jack passes away in August of two thousand and six. Now, I want to say that I remembered it being the eighth. I did a search through the presentation, could not seem to find his date of death. But I want to say that it was somewhere between the eighth and the sixteenth of August, because that's when we start to see other things shake and move. But I really want everybody to focus on the fact that we do not. We're going to see one more communication that I believe is from the Zodiac Killer, but it had been postmarked in nineteen ninety and we have talked about it a couple times throughout this presentation. But it is the last communication I believe that we see written by the author the Zodiac Killer.

2:00 So it is not coincidental that we have Jack passing away in two thousand and six and we stop seeing these letters. I haven't seen any other letters come in that make me think that there's somebody adopting or copycatting or attempting to mimic the Zodiac Killer. Otherwise we'd continue to see communications pop up if it were let's say, a group programmed to write a particular way to make us believe that it was the Zodiac But nonetheless not coincidental. Jack is passed and letters are done, right. Yep. And we kind of walked through a brief breakdown of you know, Dennis turning Jack in in two thousand, two thousand and one. In two DNA is done, Jackson is not completed within that parameter. Dennis tells Jack that nobody believes him. Jack turns over the storage shed into thousand and three to give Dennis more evidence. Two thousand and two and three he's reaching out to Tom Voight, who Dennis Kaufman is also having an issue with at that particular point in time. So Jack was very well aware of Tom Voight trying to get his identity out there.

3:17 Two thousand and five we see the Tim Miller letter where he says, my identity has been given out basically, and why nobody knows is really secret or key to this, which is I think my premise this entire presentation is why is why are we not looking at the people that are potential good suspects instead of hosting websites upon websites on fake suspects. Right, that's remids go ahead. Question. When did the Afrodity Jones program on Zodiac featuring you and Dennis? When did that come out?

3:58 I want to say that twenty ten or eleven, So we aired it shortly after I released my opinion, after Diddie Jones came in and filmed at my house actually for some of the segments. Yeah, so, but I didn't even come into the case until two thousand and nine, so that was relatively quick for her to have jumped on board and done a segment on the Zodiac. It was. It was very good and quite frankly, at the end of it star Well Dennis and chapter the Stars, I'm I'm just the expert. Humor and whatnot. It was good.

4:39 Yeah. Yeah. We did get to doing some giggling and laughing and some you know, shocking exercises for her to see that it's hard to stop doing the things that are ingrained in us, and the Zodiac took the best whack at it. But even then we would see him fall apart right and start writing with his own natural handwriting, which I tell everybody you can only disguise for so long. The brain's going to it's going to flip out something that is your normal at some point somewhere throughout that letter, no matter how hard you try to disguise that. So right after Jack dies, I say right after so if he dies of August of two thousand and six, by March of two thousand and seven we finally see the Christmas postcard come out, which I want to say it's almost kind of like a marketing strategy because we have the two thousand and seven Jake gillen Hall movie coming out.

5:33 So did they sit on this card, you know, waiting to pop it out because they had a new movie coming out, so this would raise more hubbub and media awareness and get everybody excited again over a card they had never seen. I mean, who put it out? I want to say, let me read this off because it'll tell who it is. So inside the Chris card was a copy of two postal carrier keys with serial numbers that coincided. Now, Harriet Souchet declared that the postal numbers on these keys were to the New Jersey state area and an international master postal key. These keys were universal and believed to have come from a military supply, or at least that was Harriet's take on it. Voight says they're from a man in Eureka. So these were post office box keys. But they have two different numbers on them.

6:28 So I'm not sure why anybody would have two different post office box keys with two different numbers that we attracted two different places. That in itself is interesting, unless that was just another way for Voight to steer things in another direction. So basically, the Christmas card has Groucho marks type, you know, glasses with yea disguise out the big nose and the mustache, and he's sitting in front of a jack rabbit no less. Yeah, we've got all those jack references, and it's and it says from your secret pal. Can't guess who I am yet? Well look inside and you'll find out that I'm going to keep you guessing. Happy holidays anyway, So again that little haha joke feature that the Zodiac liked to do. So the Christmas Card from the Zodiac postmark nineteen ninety, but was not produced until March two thousand and seven. It's supposedly circulated in the postal system. It says that it circulated in the postal system until this time, per the Wikipedia source, but the dates may be portrayed by the source incorrectly.

7:43 I thought that this had gone to the editor and had sat at the San Francisco Chronicle amongst other lost mail or what have you, I thought, until he discovered it. It was discovered at the Chronicle. Yeah, yeah, so up until that point though obviously, I mean it was mailed. When I say, did I have a date on this, it's just as received. Oh, received March two thousand and seven, even though the postmark was nineteen ninety and I don't get it is a Christmas card, so it does. I think it says December early December though.

8:25 So the use of the ZIP code below the address is a form that's used both by Jack and the other identified communications. Again, placement on the envelope is also identifying, not just how you write the words upon it, but how you use that space on the envelope. And I do find that those were similar. This is about the time that doctor d Antonio came from Arizona so two thousand and seven to blame Arthur Lee Allen again by saying he sees the name of Ala secretly embedded in the zodiac letters, and Professor Deuhurst from Northern Arizona University came and took a world of film that was found in Jack's belongings in two thousand and eight from Dennis in order to develop them. I'm not gonna hop into let's see two thousand and nine. I also discovered Chris Pickle from CBS thirteen came out of Arizona as well.

9:16 I don't know if there was some big push or ploy for Arizona people to want to jump on this California case. I mean, albeit the Zodiac is perceived by most just to be five to seven attempt victims, right, attempted victims, five murders, two that survived. If it was just that, why is there so much interest coming out of Arizona, I asked, right, The only thing I could really think of is that when Jack was a security guard at Arizona University. I believe that was during the time they were cataloging the different strains of anthrax. So is there a connection to these, you know, doctors, professors and movie people or I'm sorry, media people coming out of the woodworks from Arizona and wanting to cling on to Dennis if you will. I know that Stephen Dewhurst wanted to write a book, so he paid Dennis for those rights. Chris Pickele, I guess the benefit there was getting the airtime right with this spectacular story on Jack being the suspect, which brought her a lot of strife and turmoil. At least she's portrayed it that way. And then Stephen Dehurst or doctor Antonio Boy, me and him had it out. I say, me and him, that was so wrong. Him and I had it out a few times.

10:44 But he's much like Tom boy. Right. They all want to push their suspect and then degrade. In fact, I'm talking to somebody right now who puts up with Tom Voit's site, but definitely says, you know, he likes to stay clear year of what I refer to as the trolls. Real quick on Doerst. He never did write the book, did. He He did? I've been yeah, we're gonna see I think we're going to see another portion of it here in this next couple slides. But yes he did, and he did like most others did, which was boom, let me turn that phone off. Good lord, I'm not getting links.

11:24 Can you have one? Rescind I emailed him alreadyme on Lindsey says she's not getting the links, but I don't understand getting It's the same link. Yeah, she should have started that said. It's always the same link. Go back. He doesn't resend. Sorry guys for taking that quick break. If another question, Yes, what happened to the roles of film?

12:05 Some were given to the FBI, some were given to Stephen Dehurst. Some of those negatives were returned by Stephen Dohurst. Some were kept. He claimed he had the right to keep them. Because he bought the rights to write the book, which I thought was pure crap that didn't make to the evidence. Yeah, the FBI, all of the film that they produced produced a whole bunch of families and kids and all kinds of things, and Dennis's I don't know one of them. They're not family. Have no idea why these pictures are these rules of film are in Jack's belongings with all these kids and stuff on it, because they weren't anybody that Dennis knew, right, I don't know.

12:53 Only two to two and below it's not showing anymore. I don't know. In the the show one, can you send Lindsey a link? Email her a link again, I don't know, showing up in her She says, it's not showing up on her stream yard. I don't know what that means, because. Well, you've just re sent it to her email. I think, okay, just sent Okay, Now we can get back to what we're doing, all right. So aside from that, we saw Deborahrez come out and blames her dead adopted father.

13:42 I'm again trying to figure out. Now these are old words, guys. We've come a long way since then. We know some of these answers, But why everyone is rushing to conceal the identity of Jack by blaming dead men. The only thing that I could think of at the time is that ant Brex was the reason. If they could close Zodiac on somebody who is already dead, then it could never be connected to Anthrax, and possibly this entire scheme or syndicate of individuals could not be found out because it would not be linked. I did find an interesting article from the Valeo Times Herald. This is an old one. It's going to take us back to the Cecilia Shepherd and Brian Hartnell, and it's out of Valeo actually, so Mayor Island. It looks like San Francisco Bay Naval Shipyard.

14:33 So this is literally coming out of the Mayor Island newspaper September. It looks like tenth of nineteen sixty nine. I can barely read it. Yeah, we're going to find some things interesting in here, and I'm hoping that I'm going to be able to read all of this clear enough. But it says multiple wounds, fatal companion listed as serious. Authorities give out more details on merciless attack by Jane Smith. Times Harold's staff writer so NAPA. Cecilia Shepherd, the twenty two year old co ed stabbed by a hooded killer at Lake Berryessa Saturday, lost her fight for life at three forty five pm Monday in Queen of the Valley Hospital.

15:17 Her parents, Mister and Missus Robert Shepherd of Riverside, were at her side when she succumbed to multiple stand wounds inflicted by an unknown assailant who attacked the girl and her boyfriend Brian Hart, now twenty, as they sat by the lakeside one fourth of a mile north of Park headquarters at an evening picnic. She was. Go ahead, just. Another tie in for Riverside. I didn't know her parents were for Riverside. So Yeside, Yes, So there was she So Sherry Joe Bates went to Riverside Community College and she and Cecilia Shepherd went to Riverside University. I believe it was, but there was, yeah, there was. There was some type of connection.

16:07 I thought, as though they knew each other or somebody affiliated with Cecilia Shepherd had attended a wedding of some sort with the Bates or vice versa. There was there was some talk about some connection between them. Or the possibility of them having crosspaths and Riverside. And Brian Hartnell relocated to Riverside too, right, I heard. I don't know if he's still he's probably retired by now, but he was practicing law on Riverside right right. We did try to reach out to him, but he did not respond back. It says she was knifed mercilessly seven times in the back and abdomen. I thought she was stabbed more times than that, but so seven times back in ab abdomen. Hartnell's condition was listed as serious by a hospital spokesman. His parents, mister and Missus Calvin Clavit Calvin and Heartnell of Troddale Organ. So it looks like they're out of Troutdale. Organ kept a constant vigil at the hospital, as had the Shepherds since early Sunday.

17:28 Heartnell was stabbed ten times in the back. See so I thought the female I know I was. I was under the impression that too. But again, we're paying attention to a newspaper who may not necessarily have those numbers correctly, right, something first to argue over no suspect. Sheriff's investigators said they have not yet identified a suspect in the killing. Something to the murder of three vale of residents in two separate incidents last December, OH link linked to the murder of three Valeo rest residents in two separate incidents last December and July and all points. Bulletin was issued to law enforcement agencies throughout the nation, describing the killer as having been having brown hair, about five foot nine to six feet tall, twenty to thirty years of age, two hundred to two hundred and fifty pounds, with a husky voice. Now, except for the twenty to thirty year old part, that does pretty much describe Jack moving on.

18:41 He had that hood on. And was that description coming from hert andelt? I think that it was supposedly coming from the victims at Blue Rock Springs and Lake Herman Road. Lake Herman Road, Yeah, Mogeaux that survived. But here's the thing that headlights. Yeah, the headlights are are blasting towards the car and pitch darkness. Right, so he's got headlights, he's not going to see Jack walking up on him, and he's not going to really see Jack at all because Jack is shining a flashlight into the car right into his eyes, right because that's what he's using at that particular point in time. Sol also had multiple layers of clothing on which I've found odd.

19:25 Very odd. And of course the fact that he claims to have looked up and back as the assailant was getting into the car, so the light inside the car gave him a visual of what the person looked like. I just don't know if somebody attacked me, if i'd have the wherewithal to even raise my head, what am I asking to get? Like, Oh, you're not dead yet, come back, let me kill you, Like I don't know about you, but I'm playing dead, no doubt. I'm certainly not looking up to see if I can make an identification, because witnesses don't survive. It doesn't make sense. So that's where that age range comes from. Is Migeaux.

20:06 I believe according to the description given by Heartnell, the attacker was wearing dark clothing shoulder length. Shoulder length. You guys, and I want you to keep in mind Dennis's hood or Jack's hood that was found in the PA system. It stopped at the shoulders with a cutoff a shoulder length hood with holes for eyes, glasses and clip on glasses. Which showed through the hood. He flaunted the gun sight emblem on the on the hood where it came over his chest. So once again we're talking about exactly what what Dennis found in that PA system. It stopped at the shoulders and it went down the chest with the emblem obviously on the chest. Let's see said he said he had had escaped from Deer Lodge State Prison, Montana and had killed a guard during his escape. However, the story was checked by authorities and proved false. So of course, I mean, he also said he needed money to get to Mexico, and he never went to Mexico, but Mexico was kind of a common theme that we were hearing throughout these communications.

21:28 Why is he if he plans to kill him, why is he giving him this erroneous information? All? Oh, we've got Linds Mack today. Good morning, Lindsay. Hey, Hey, yes I can. We're covering an old article, but I found some interesting information in it. So I'm just reading through that just to sift out what it was that I found. So Park rangers Sergeant White was the first to reach the couple after Park headquarters was notified of their injuries, and I'm ad. I mean some of these words you cannot read. What's that?

22:11 Yeah, it looks a little blurry. It's very blurre. It's very hard. Fisherman Ronald Bong of San Francisco, with his nine year old son, pulled his boat into an inlet near the isolated shore line about six thirty pm. He cut his motor and in the silence heard cries from heart Now. He pulled his boat to within twenty yards of the shore and saw the couple bloodied and crying out that they had been stabbed and robbed. Fearing trickery. I don't know how much he got away with because I felt like he didn't take anything. So what did he want? Change keys? I don't know what were they robbed of. Fearing trickery, Fong headed to Rancho Monticella to sorry Rancho Monticello to alert these park rangers ladin Land or I don't know Lynd and White were summoned. So I wanted to bring up the fact that it talks about Monticello because we have the cheese letter that discusses I know, we always giggle over the Cheese letter because we don't really know if it's real or not, and I can't find an image of it anymore.

23:23 It's clearly been taken down for whatever purpose. Tom boyit decided it wasn't necessary, but definitely Discusss Monticello in the progression of that letter. So I find it interesting that we are seeing Monticello in one of the attacks, and then there's a communication that was deemed a hoax or taken down, or maybe it was just a hoax. Tom boyd and his crew was trying to pull on Dennis and I. It says that let's see free self. White said when he arrived at the scene, Heart and All had freed himself from a rope which bound his hands and had crawled about one hundred yards. Ranger Dennis Land brought him back to where Miss Shepherd was basically writhing in agony. White and Land wrapped a couple of blankets and attempted to quiet someone while waiting for an ambulance.

24:24 While White said he kept them talking in an effort to keep their minds off their pain and also to obtain information for the Sheriff's office, He said they said they were seated near shore on their picnic when suddenly a man with a hood over his space and an automatic pistol in his hand, came toward them. The hooded man said he was an ex con from Colorado and wanted a car and money. Hartnell said he only had seventy five cents. So this is what I'm saying, Why did they call it robbery? He had seventy five cents, but he did have a car, and he gave the man the keys for his car and told him it was up the road. White recalled. So I'm not sure if those keys were ever located again, or if that was one of the clues or trophies that the Zodiac took and was in fact missing and never seen again.

25:19 I'm not sure what that was ended up being. It says both tied. The man said, I have to tie you up. I have to here's that statement again, I have to tie you up, I have to kill you. Bates had to die. He had some plastic clothesline cut into Now this plastic clothes line is where Sandy Betz comes in talking about the clothes line, and we've seen clothesline use definitely in some of these crimes. He showed us some clothesline that. Way right and pre cut, and Charles mentioned that Jack used to carry pre cut cord in his trunk of his vehicle that was not big enough to tie anything down other than probably a person. He said, I think about two to three feet long pieces of this white cord, this right cut into Oh, this actually gives I can't see the number cut into so many foot strips which he tied them with, so it's not I can't really make out what that word says. Cut into something foot one, two, three, I don't know, foot strips which he tied them with their hands behind their backs and then between their legs, so he hog tied them. And we know Jack's you know, affinity for hogs. After killing all those ones, then the

26:53 man said, I'm going to have to stab you people. I'm going to have to once again. Heartnell said, please. Me. First, I'm chicken. I couldn't stand to see her stabbed. The man told him, I'll do just that. He stabbed Heartnell until he passed out. The poor girl, she just has to watch. Then he knifed her until she fainted. When he stabbed Heartnell, it was deliberate. When he stabbed the girl, he laughed in a frenzy. White told or White said, Heartnell told him he said, Miss Shepherd was writhing on the ground in agony and kept pleading with him to give her something to kill the pain or knock her out, while White, who was who has patrolled the lake for ten years, described the scene as unbelievable.

27:51 I've seen a lot of things people cut by boat blades and such, but never anything like these two nice kids cutting pieces, he told a Times Herald reporter. Cut into pieces. I'm not sure if that was just sensationalism. No, they were stabbed. They weren't cut into pieces. I know. So again with the news the assailants termed a psychopathic killer by authorities called apartment what's that. Name? Huh? If you read a. Couple I get a couple words from lindsay. So. He called the Dapple police department about seven thirty pm and said, I want to report a murder or a double murder.

28:42 There are two miles. They are two miles north of park headquarters. They were in a white Volkswagen Karmagia. And then he didn't hang up the phone. In a quiet voice, he added, I'm the one that did it. The dispatcher heard the phone put down but not hung back up on the receiver. The call came from a payphone with a two five to five prefix, believed to be at the Napa, California Wash. Fingerprints taken from the phone booths are being checked for identification. The message written on the karma Gillo was uh was the most apparent clue it I think it's his clue is the Valeo slays. Written on the white it says white but right door with a black felt pen were dates of the two Valayo shootings, December twentieth and July fourth, along with the date of the bury Us attack at the time five pm. The message was signed with a crossed it's going to be the cross circle obviously used to represent yeah, used to represent now, I like there's this they say, used to

30:13 represent the crosshairs in a telescope gun sight. Sheriff investigators removed the door from the vehicle and brought it to the Sheriff's department for examination. Who that was a hard one, Goodness, I had to strain. To me, which is the key evidence? Is the writing on the car door with reference to the other verters, the dates. Right, You want to clearly yeah, he wants to be known for what it is that he's doing. That's for sure. But that description of the hood was pretty much just, you know, straightforward. It stopped at the shoulders, as it is the one that that that Jack having the PA system.

30:56 It donned the gun sight symbol on the front of it that came down the chest, and it's square ish, not square on top, but square ish instead of being I'm guessing rounded or pointed as some executioner hoods are. I did find some additional handwriting I thought was interesting because it obviously gives us more to look at. Jack does definitely seem to have many different ways that he can write. I want to see. Let's see. So this one is to Gary. It's now Monday, two pm and we should be out of here in another hour, so should be there tomorrow morning. Sometime I'm confused by the note because it sounds like he's writing a letter that's not going to make it to the location before he does, because he says he's going to be there tomorrow morning.

31:45 The radiator didn't hold. Had to take it to a radiator shop this morning and get it repaired. He had to put a strip of metal over the crack and solder it. We are going through Carson City on through Highway fifty to Interstate fifteen, then eighty nine to flag Staff. So we should be there when you get home from work Tuesday evening. Take care, be good. But then he crosses out be good, et cetera. Love unk. I hope I knew that was bound to happen. I might very well be my mama coming on all right, So per Steven do her real quick.

32:29 On my last slide, there was a number underneath John Terrence. Was that a social Security number or purportedly? And of course we see him now using John once again. Yeah, I don't know what the deal is with this man going back and forth as though he doesn't know who he is. Well, yeah, one minute he's John, the next minute he's Jack, you know, then he's whomever. I mean, he's used so many different aliases, per Steven do Her spook. In two thousand, a DNA sample was taken from Chub Chubb's cheek. So we had some questions about the DNA and I said, I didn't recall clearly. These are my notes from back in twenty ten to twenty thirteen, so it's what I knew at that time. DNA sample was taken from Chubb's cheek by FBI agents from San Antonio as he lay uncomprehensibly in a rust home. The FBI thought it possible that it would be an important key to the puzzle, a piece that showed where the other parts fit. Chubbs was Jack's last living relative who shared the mitochondrial genes of Jack's mother and Chubb's sister Na.

33:35 It would it would be the same DNA pattern that Jack would have carried in his hair. And then I wrote, why did the FBI engage the handwriting and everything Dennis threw at them, including the hood if it wasn't a match? So if they did this in two thousand and eight, why did they continue to patronize DNIS clear into many of my reports? I gave something like four of them, right, So if it wasn't a match, and I'm sure they wouldn't have given maybe they did give Dennis that information and the YouTube responder was correct, and there was some sort of a match to a nephew or something like that on one of the letters that would have led the FBI to to continue into this investigation and seeking out information on Jack. Yahuse here we are eight years later.

34:22 I hear you now keat morning. So, yeah, what happened to this source of DNA? Was it ran? Was it putting codis? I do remember recall the FBI saying they couldn't put Jack's DNA into COTIS because he wasn't a criminal, which is clearly untrue based on the three different indictments that he had and won was assault with a deadly weapon, including probation. So why it wasn't his I mean, when did we start taking people's DNA As a matter of fact, I do not know. But yeah, a record record.

35:02 Yeah, But the thing is, is it even when you ran his background reports, because his record were under different versions of his it wasn't his name. When you run a background on him, you don't see that he has any arrests or convictions. Okay, well, so strange that even focus on the SFPD in two thousand. Oh okay, So we focus on the SFPD in two thousand and they're botching of Jack's DNA supplied on an envelope by Dennis to the FBI and subsequently to the SFPD. January two thousand and nine, this is when I'm contacted by Dennis Kaufman. He at the time is in the hospital recovering from an infection in his foot. And this is where I basically wanted to start to tell my story in regards to this case and how I got involved and what it really meant. So Dennis couldn't get to me for a little bit. Like I said, he was suffering from an infection in his foot, partially due to diabetes, I'm sure, and I was waiting for him to actually bring me the handwriting. So I called my mentor at the time, Bart Baggett. I was, I want to say, it was probably about seven or eight months away from completing my apprenticeship when I contacted him, and of course we had a decent conversation on the phone. He told me to take it on for entertainment value, but not to hold too much into it because he was working himself on a particular suspect or should they say, the daughter of a suspect that he was going to be writing a book about and doing a documentary on. And he offered

36:35 to send me the zodiac letters because I had no reference for them, I did not know where to obtain them, or you know, I was assuming that I would get the best versions from him, because he was very familiar with the case he happened to be working on another suspect. I didn't know at the time that he had actually done episodes on America's Most Wanted with John Walsh and with Tom Void, or that he had patronized Tom Voyd, but clearly that's probably where he got some of his information from. Either way, he sent me the I want to say it was the Melvin Belli letter, one of the most disguised letters. I mean, of all the letters that you would send to somebody, I wouldn't task that.

37:18 Maybe he gave it to me because I was an apprentice and I was still new and hoping that I wouldn't figure it out because it was so heavily disguised. But it became clear that you could break it down, and by the time I got to the bottom of that letter, we started to see that author revert back to some natural handwriting, and quite frankly, it was found in Jack. So those characteristics that I was looking for, such as the cursive O with a loop in the center, all of these things could be found in Jack's printed writing as well. And I want to say I stayed up until about four o'clock in the morning even though I had school the next day, probably even had a test. Who knows. I was lucky to actually make it through two degrees in psychology and legal assisting with a three point eight seventy five while battling the enemies of the Zodiac killer cases, because that's literally what it felt like.

38:08 But I stayed up til four in the morning, and I found more than twenty significant and I would say fine slash subtle traits that an individual would use in handwriting that was consistent between Jack and the Zodiac. So I was desperate to get more handwriting from Dennis. Dennis was desperate to have me look at his website and the evidence that he had collected and put together. I withheld from doing that until I could complete the handwriting examination. And then once I completed that and identified Jack as the possible author of these documents, so actually not possible, I identified him as the author of the Zodiac letters, and then the pressure was starting to be applied. Dennis really badly wanted me to climb onto CBS thirteen News to render my opinion on the news. Bart Baggett did not want me to do such a thing. He actually came back and said the writing is too large. You it's not the same author. He also made a statement, well, Jack was just a security guard. There's no way he could have perpetrated these crimes. Well, we have found out since then. Jack is so much more than just the security guard.

39:20 What's in it for Baggett to just cut your theory on Jack? Well, when I started, well no, when I started the school, he was based out of Texas, and he had said, you have all of California. You know, you're going to be one of the very few, the only one in the school in California that's going to be your area. Inside of ten months, all of a sudden, he and Beth both moved to the Los Angeles area, which I couldn't make any sense of. You if you hadn't been planning to make this move and it happened last minute, at what point would you have, you know, stated to me, guess what, I'm moving into California and half the business is now going to be gone kind of situation. I think that because he was working on Debora Perez and he had plans for, like I said, a documentary and to write a book, that this was going to be a money making source for him. So he was upset that I wanted to come out and tell him give my opinion on CBS thirteen News, which at the time, when you're an apprentice and you're under contract with the school.

40:25 I paid him something like fifty percent of my fees to peer review any work that I did, and it wouldn't matter what I thought about the handwriting. If his opinion differed from mine, I had to release his opinion, not mine. That was the contract. Dennis, however, could Yeah. Dennis however, couldn't afford to pay, so there was technically no contract. So we had a loophole there. And even though bart Baggott had at first he tried to intimidate me by telling me not to release my opinion, and then he went so far as to say I would be kicked out of the school, I would lose my tuition. So I was like physically sick to my stomach for a week. I'm seven or eight months away from finishing my apprenticeship and this case that I didn't even ask for, that's dropped in my lap and I'm just seeing the truth and the evidence should cost me, you know, my twelve thousand dollars in commission or cost me my right to finish becoming a document examiner. I mean, none of it seemed truly fair. Of course, I was then contacted by his so his suspect was guy Ward Hendrickson, because Deborah Perez claimed that she was the daughter of him.

41:39 That Bart Baggett said to me, she showed the genetic predisposition to write like the Zodiac. She was in possession of Paul Stein's glasses, there was a few she had the hood. I got to hear all of this evidence she purportedly had in this case when she turned out to be a phony all the way around. And I was contacted by Jan Hendrick and she asked me to do an examination on her father's handwriting, which I did, and there's no way he wrote any of the zodiac letters, absolutely not. And then she gave me the family background, which was to include the fact that Deborah Perez was adopted her and I think four siblings or something were adopted by Jan's father, who married, I guess, and brought the mother, who lived in Mexico with these kids on a dirt floor, as the story's told, brought them to the United States to give them a better life. And here's Deborah Perez trying to tarnish this man's name. But she's not genetically even really related, so there's no genetic predisposition, you know.

42:42 I mean, at most her fifteen minutes of. Fame, she got a lot more than fifteen minutes that news story with. I mean, she's she stood on the steps of the chronicle with her disbarred attorney as her publisher or promoter, whatever you call those people. Was that. Anyway? So yeah, on the steps of the chronicle, you got to see Sandy Betts there. You know, everybody turned out and showed up. It was a nice little crowd. That story went, I'm sure all over the world. It was everywhere. And then purportedly she was given something like a hundred hours I don't know if that was true.

43:28 Once again, but given one hundred hours by the San Francisco PD and investigating her bull bs who I was about to cuss because that makes me angry. And so they gave her all of this time only to have her deemed a fraud in the end, and she went away in the ether just as quick as any any other person has when it comes to having made an identification or claiming that their dad did. Dennis never went into the ether. Dennis never just popped up for a year or so, made a big hubub and fell off the face. Of the earth. This man collectively worked for almost I think thirteen fourteen years on attempting to show and support the evidence that Jack had that made him the best suspect for the Zodiac Killer, whereas all of these other people were kind of a fly in, fly out kind of thing. So let's see here we've had. We talked about Chris Pickele, We talked about Bart, Deborah pres Oh. In the long run, when it came right down to it, about a week after I was threatened that I could lose my apprenticeship and my fees to the school, I was informed by Bart that because Dennis didn't pay me, that that didn't did it didn't preclude me from giving my opinion in that matter, since there was no contract basically between him, I and Dennis, because Dennis couldn't afford to pay me and I was basically doing the work for free, so that meant that I could release my opinion. And he gave me that phone call. Like I said, about a week after telling me that I could be kicked out,

44:58 so I'm sick to my stomach for a week, and then I hear from him that Nope, go ahead and give it and guess what, no book, no documentary. Often to the ether, just like everybody else. Stephen Doohurst did pretty much the same thing. Like I said, when he decided to keep the roles of film, him and Dennis had a falling out. I haven't talked to Janis in a long time. I know that she moved a few times. I kept in contact with Christmas cards and stuff with her over the years. I want to say it's been a couple of years since I talked to her, but it was definitely after I started the podcast. She was having some health issues. We dealt with Harry Phillips. Everybody's heard me talk about that phone call when I asked why Jack's DNA wasn't ran for the twenty on twenty episode with Arthur Lee Allen and all these other suspects.

45:44 Eight suspects to include most of the fake suspects that are found on vot's website was excluded for possible DNA matches. Aphrodity Jones. She came in twenty ten twenty eleven to film the Investigation Discovery episode of True Crimes on the Zodiac Killer. She made a comment at the end of her episode that her contacts at the FBI confirmed the handwriting was a match. She says this in that actual episode. Now, Tom Voy and his crew then flipped that on the message board and tried to say that Dennis and I were her FBI contacts. No, we're not the FBI contacts, nor did we ever tell anybody the FBI said, I've been nothing honest about the supposed opinion letter, which was ridiculous.

46:38 I've never seen anything written so short and sweet on anybody's handwriting that said Jack may have written it, Jack may not have written it. Yeah, I've been nothing more than honest about that. So I know that when they try to accuse Aphrodite Jones of stating that her contacts from the FBI were Dennis and I, that he's just dumb. They're dumb. They're just looking to muddy up the waters and make us look like we're the ones telling her. She's not gonna believe us, she's not going to take our words for it, and I'm sure that she's all up there in hollyweird with all of these true crimes. She has contacts, probably in law enforcement all over the United States. Would I wouldn't doubt we delivered. Let's see, we delivered information or negatives to Mitsy Roberts at the LAPD in the Black doll You case that poof often to the ether. Not only did we lose some of the negatives as well, but Mitsy Roberts was told not to investigate Jack as a suspect. So I don't know if LAPD was just done wasting any money on this case, but it sounds to me like that's a pretty harsh way to say screw you to all the victims' family members.

47:50 Yes, wasn't Mitsy Roberts kind of enthusiastic at firstshed it? Yes, she was very, very interested. In fact, when she received the position in cold cases, she made the comment, like myself, when I watched the Jake Gillenhall version of The Zodiac Killer, she said, Oh, I'm gonna solve the Black Dollia case. She goes, I had no reason to believe that I would, but I said this out loud to my friends and everybody. But that's kind of the same thing I did with the Zodiac I was like, oh, my god, they didn't figure out who it was. They didn't solve it. What in the world, I totally can solve this case. And I had no business saying that either, because I had no idea and I certainly wasn't a document examiner in two thousand and seven when I saw it.

48:37 We have dealt with let's see, Oh, we're down to about the last minute. Okay, so I'm going to hold up on continuing with that. Is there anything else that you would like to add. We'll just continue on with my story when we come back, and all the things that we've gone through sounds good to me. Awesome, powesome. So anything fun planned for today? Oh? I think I'm gonna take the risk day off. You're not going to Tahoe? No, I was thinking about it. My buddy kind of flaked on me. I was wondering, I don't want the hotels go way up. On the weekends. Yes, they do, that is for sure. But we played golf yesterday.

49:19 Oh did you win? Oh? We just we don't really keep score. You both played well. Though, good good? So you just basically you're playing against yourself, Kay, just trying. To improve, trying to make pars Bertie's lucky. Oh my buddy almost had a hold one on the first hole, not really lanted a foot from the hole. Shut ah, that's an in your face moment. Yeah no, he got a birdie. Ah there but not there. All right, everybody, you have a wonderful weekend. We will see you next Friday. Thank you for being here again. Nolan Peace, Thank you. And thanks for the use of your living room. Zaza Za, you think like exam