Episode 98: Zodiac Rants, Letters, and Solves

0:01 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. Good Morning, True Seekers and true crime junkies. Welcome back to another episode of Hit the Roadjack Finding the Zodiac. Today we have Nolan del Campo and Harriet Suchet with us. I'm going to welcome them to the show. Good morning, Good morning guys, doing everybody's staying warm. It's a little it's full here, so it's probably gonna be seventy five today, so it's warm here, but it's it's freezing in the morning, like pretty How are you up there on the r Oh, it's beautiful. I think we're supposed to be at

1:32 eighty today, right, really, yeah, it's nice. Yeah. Today, I'm going to actually start with something that Wan and Wan are you there? You're going to join us right now, aren't you? Hey? Yeah? Okay, can hear you? Oh? There, you go hi, Wan morning, and I thought I lost everybody. So our addigital voice. You're what my podcast engineer? Is that the proper technical term for you? Engineer? Yes, engineer, podcast engineer, that would be correct. I did it right? Oh sweet. Anyways, last week, after we ended our episode, Wanhead told me about something called freaking, And of course everybody has their own idea of what freaking means, but it was an issue or a very interesting topic, and you had indicated that that was some type of way to make a free phone call correct one that would be correct. Yeah, back then, not anymore in the sixties. I know you keep reminding me of that. I want to get a whistle and I want to try it. Okay, I mean if you can find a working public phone, then maybe you can still get away with it. You know there there is still I don't know if it's working. Did we check to see if that payphone was working out there at Lake Kerman Road, Harriot? I I don't.

3:04 That would be more like uh our competitors side of what they would do. But there was a lot of things going on, so it's no I met I met when we were out there, we saw the phone booth at Lake Herman Road at the visitor area to Lake Herman. Remember the phone booth that still had an actual phone booth in it. I think that was with you and Dennis. Dennis never went out there with me, Sandy Bens. Anyways, Oh, I know is it's it's supposed to still be there. It is, and I might have to go try it and see if I can't make me some friend phone we got. We got some things to do now on the to do list. Just wait until I tell you about what whim out there? Yeah, okay, So on the on the freaking side of things, One had sent me a article from Encyclopedia Britannica, and in that I found that the freaking was also known as phone freaking, fraudulent manipulation of telephone signaling in order to make free phone calls. And the reason why I got interested in this is because we know that the Zodiac was making phone calls. Now did he pay for these phone calls? This is something I've often now wondered since one has you know, given me this information. This sounds like something that would be right up Jack's alley. It's basically hacking the phone system in order to make free long distance phone calls. So that's what made me start to think about all the payphone boots that he had used and

4:36 whether or not he was actively paying to make those calls. Now, I would think back then, a nine to one one call would probably be free, wouldn't you want? I mean in the early nineties. I don't think they had nine one one back then, not in nineties seventy, but they had ways to make emergency calls, you know. Yeah, so you would have to act surely know the police department's phone number to call it. I think you would just ask the operator operator zero for the operator, but you can try out for one one out here in San Francisco, New York. That's what I was surprised that it goes back to all the way in nineteen thirty. Yeah, you would dial for one one or the operator. Hey, I need help here, let's see what's the number? Okay. So I'm just trying. I'm just trying to do I mean, I know that he also called victim's family members. So again you would probably four one one or dial zero for the operator and then they would patch you through. But I would think you would have to pay for that or colllect the phone number.

5:41 Freaking freaking actually bypass that, so you would need to know the number then, right, because the way that it worked is that the frequency they used to transfer you over that was used by the operator. So by you creating that frequency, you would bypass the operator and make the phone call yourself. Oh okay, that's right up jack zally right. So basically what it says is by emulating those tones, freaks could make phone calls around the world. Freaking largely ended in nineteen eighty three when telephone lines were upgraded to the Common Channel Inner office signaling, which is CCIS, which separated signaling from the voice line. The term freak comes from a combination of words phone freak and freak are free and freak. Phone freaking verse began in the nineteen sixties when people discovered that various whistles could recreate the twenty six hundred megahertz pitch of the phone routing signal. Some people could whistle in a perfect twenty six one hundred megahertz pitch, most notably a blind man, and I guess sound and tone would be, you know, a heightened experience for them, it says John Draper, a friend of Angriscia discovered that a whistle distributed it as a prize.

6:57 In a Captain Crunch, serial admitted this is great, you guys, admitted a perfect twenty six hundred makerhertz pitch, thus earning him the Moniker Captain Crunch. As freaking evolved, the use of what is known as a blue box or m effer came the most common way of manipulating the phone signal. Blue boxes were self constructed transmitters that gave the users access to the same twelve tones used by phone operators, as described in the Bell System Technical Journal in nineteen fifty four. In nineteen sixty, early freakers were known to examine dumpsters outside phone company offices and other locations in order to find discarded manuals and equipment. Now it got really interesting as it began to talk about things like freaking entered the popular imagination in October nineteen seventy one, when Esquire featured the story The Secrets of the Little Blue Box by Ron Rosenbaum. The practice became popular on university campuses, prompting future Apple Inc. Founder Steve Jobs and Steve Wohsnack to make blue boxes long before they built their Macintosh. During the nineteen seventies, freaking became associated with political radicalism. Abby Hoffman, leader of the Youth International Party, became interested in freaking as a means of resisting the monopoly of American Telephone and Telegraph, which is now known as AT and T. In nineteen seventy one, Hoffman and a freaker known as al Bell began publishing a newsletter called Party Line, which described ways of subverting telephone lines for their own uses. In nineteen seventy three, Party Line became known as TAP, standing

8:31 for Technological Assistance Program. Hoffman advocated liberating the telephone lines because he believed that taking control of the communications system would be a crucial action for mass revolt. By the mid nineteen seventies, AT and T had revealed that it had lost approximately thirty million per year to telephone fraud, including freaking. Now, I want to talk about that number, thirty million per year to this freaking or this hacking of the phone lines. What does that say about how much they're really making Because I don't know anybody who knew any I mean, Juan was the first person I've ever heard about this from. And I came from the era of telephone boosts. So obviously it's not common knowledge by everybody. But if they've lost thirty million just due to it, then I can't imagine what they actually made. Let's see, in nineteen eighty three, telephone lines were upgraded to CCIS to separate signaling from the voice line, effectively ending the freaking.

9:28 Although freaking largely died out, the spirit of freaking infused computer hacking. So many freakers became hackers when personal computers and modems became available during the early nineteen eighties, and thus perpetuated their anti bureacratic sentiments and belief that lines of communication should be free. How do you guys feel about that, right? I mean, shouldn't we be able to reach out and talk to anybody regardless or have them open lines of communicating that the government is so? I mean, we've heard about the telegraph, We've heard about the teletype, We've heard about the am radio. We've heard about all these different ways that communication has been made free to them. Why shouldn't we have that same capability? Reach out then touch someone was one of the It was one of the catch phrases, reach out and touch someone for a nice penny and thirty million. Well that was awesome. One. Is there anything else you'd like to add to that? Do you know much about the hacking, like what they were talking about as it pertained to the computers and the motives. Yeah, the hacking is more so like to have a line of communication across the world through a chat line instead of the phone, Instead of the phone. Oh right, I suppose like WhatsApp or Signal or some of those that you can actually reach

11:00 out and make phone calls on that, or like FaceTime. Right, this was back when before all of that, before the apps and all that came came through. So that was more like online chat rooms. Think more of like Reddit. All right, the dark rooms, freaking you guys, everybody's hacking something. Let's go ahead and put up the PowerPoint presentation. At this point, we're gonna climb right back into the solves with Harriet. You had sent me over an additional my name is solved that you found. Now this one was from the actual letter, correct, Yes, well I can go ahead. Okay, No, no, no, I got you guys.

11:41 Something's going on with my headset. Sorry wan, I got chat. I just had to take my headset off. Okay, something's going on there. All right, guys, we're back, I said, the ghosts are acting up again. Ah, all right, So back to what I was saying, Harriet, this is the this is an additional salvet to the my name is cipher And you had done a stenographic solve to this correct, I believe so, and then adding the code the AE and then all this. You know what Dennis told me that Jack told him that it says Jack, my name Jack. So I mixed that all in and and this is the message you got, can you? Yeah? Well, this is this actually goes after the envelope. I think I'm going to be done with the envelope by monday. But anyways, he's saying, so make sure as soon as possible to answer question. Because alcoholics anonymous located you see, Davis doctors MD doctors require actual sequence a LSD the mickey Finn to put something in a particular drink.

12:58 B lick Washington in payote stamp is a two cent stamp, now extremely rare then commonplace anyways, and uc D has the CIA like sergic al acid diffel mind dash one hundred. I'll explain why I was able to pick that number anyways, if Post editor, he's asking if Post editor son this New York Post in New York City, RNC, this Republican National Committee, Guy Prescott Bush, Missus Prescott Dorothy or Jerry McCabe, which was Kennedy's and other people's and avyad Antidote payod on that stamp. I am no minesio a protected name by that means government everything. Noman can chime in why that would mean anyways, at alcoholics anonymous me Zodiac Jack, he's trying to get the cure.

14:00 He's trying to get off mk ultra and all this stuff that they're programmed to do. So he's trying to get cured himself, and then he's going to try to stop everything else that he's saying is going to happen in the future. So this could be the reason for the outbreak of the mescaline and the payote that we're seeing during this time in the nineteen seventies, is that they're using it in a way to help people to get off the LSD or the acid from the mk Ultra program. I'm guessing that's part of it. So this is a unique type of LSD government version, and I'm thinking I'm going to find out that there's going to be a unique type of payote that goes back decades on this stamp that actually comes from between nineteen eight to like nineteen forty seven, and it was still in use from a vending machine, though not from the United States Postal Service, but printed by printing and graving, so normal LSDS LSD twenty five. You said this was LSD one hundred, I've never heard of that. Well, this is That's why I said it can't be LSD minus one, like zero one one or zero zero one, because all I was left with was those three numbers. So this would be. This would be since CIA came out after the nineteen thirties, this

15:30 is their version. They there's supposed to be different version, different numbers. I don't know. I'm not CIA, I'm not I'm not mg Ultra, I'm not the federal government and other governments, Soviet. All kinds of things are coming out in these that what is the number? What does the number indicate? Nolan? Do you know that I don't know what the hundred means yet? Five? Yeah? Yeah, gotcha. Okay, Wait to identify one quick point about ce I in k Ultra and programs like that. A lot of times the leaders, the presidents in the hierarchy, state Department, and whatnot were unaware of these programs that were going on, like dramestic surveillance, the LSD experiments, the mind control experiments. The government, the nominal government didn't really know what the heck was going on when the CIA was doing it stuff well, And that brings me to a really great point. Because I told Harriet we spoke yesterday about this. I wanted her to give me kind of a brief statement as to what she believed Jack was and what he was involved with. And literally she is indicated. And I'm gonna let you take this here in a second, but you believe the Twin Towers and Building Number seven, which housed both the Treasury and the CIA, were under plans for more than decades in order to destroy it so that they could cover up all of the information in these documents that were I think it was Helms was at Helms that wanted all the k Ultra stuff destroyed. I have to destroy

17:03 most of it, but there were some that he didn't get to, and maybe he just didn't know where it was or I don't know what happened. But Harriet, Harriet has actually come up with us all that indicates how those additional documents came about, which we're going to get to. But Harriet, just give us a brief overview of what you think Jack, who he was, and what he was involved with, and then we can tie that back to this story. He's definitely mk ultra CIA and I had when I was seeing the salt surface surfacing the last couple of weeks, I'm I had to verify. I had to look it up very quickly. You know, did they start planning the World Trade Center in the late nineteen forties? Yes, you can look it up. You can find out they planned it in the late nineteen forties. That's the beginning of our CIA. So he's the gist of it is he's involved with some incredible, very dark and he even says evil plans and programs, and they programmed him. They mickey finned him with the LSD. And they also did the same to Frank Olsen and Frank Olson.

18:15 Apparently according to many, we were going to see some of the saults D. I think. Anyways, he's saying Frank Olsen copied all these files starting from the I believe the nineteen thirties in the OSS into the CIA, and some people found out and they argued. On November twenty eighth, nineteen fifty three, Jack is saying repetitively, he saw Frank Olsen go out the window. I'm thrown out the window. He did first, and then they killed them because they probably had to get the LSD into him so that they could use that as the reasoning for why he would have freaked out and jumped on his zone. But Harriet, like she said, is coming up with saws that indicate Jack watched it was side and white, Yeah, saying yea like shitty thing to do or what a shitty thing to do. And then now he's in this for some reason. He's having I believe, tons of flashbacks and he's keep seeing Frank going out the window. Frank So in sixty in sixty seven when the so called MK Ultra program ended, and we say so called because I think they just flipped it into another program, gave it a new name. Richard Helms actually he was what head of the CIA or yeah, I think he was just become a head of it at that point.

19:41 Yes, okay, he ordered he ordered all the documents in MK Ultra destroyed in thirty thousand were supposedly misfiled in another location that he didn't catch, and that then surfaced in the seventies to obviously out the CIA on these programs and what it was that they were doing. And ultimately speaking, it had always been my assertion that Building number seven, which hadn't been touched by any type of aircraft or otherwise have been imploded because the CIA and the Treasury, both inside the same building, were looking to destroy anything that could hold them culpable for these type of acts. But I was more on the side of the missing two hundred and seventy trillion dollars from the Treasury in regards to our social security that Bush was being hammered down on. For now. If the CIA is holding or residing with the Treasury, then I can see how Jack would be both that Treasury goon that you talked about Harriot and the CIA at the same time. And there's only one way to get rid of information, and I think they knew this, and that was to destroy it all.

20:52 You couldn't simply erase things. The point there's a really good book. It's called A Terrible mistake. So it's the story of Frank Olsen and it's also about the history of LSD and the history of the CIA's secret programs like Artic Choke and Bluebird and nk L Trip and all that. And it goes from before his death, after his death, all the way up until like the nineties. So it's a great book. It's called a Terrible Mistake. Wow, so say it. Oh, I was going to say one thing with what I'm seeing people are going to say, how say that I've seen many times now that Jack is against seeing him going out the window. He's knowing something about World Trade Center, all this stuff pre programmed, pre planned.

21:45 I'm going to say that it's Frank Olsen was actually the first person out the World Trade Center window. He must have knew that this was coming too, and they just pushed him out the window. So and then also threw out Yeah, so in the little list letter, you're going to find out some things I don't know. We're covering that today. Yeah, Yeah, we're going to get onto that. So let's just see if we can cover whatever else we had in here. So Alcoholics Anonymous was also interesting to me because Jack carried around the serenity prayer in his in his back pocket kind of thing. I know that he became baptized in nineteen eighty, so he had kind of sobered up and tried to go on a straight life. And I think that you've also indicated that by that time he is really trying to out everybody in regards to this, so he might have had his own come to Jesus meeting. Well, he was pre programmed to do all these things, and then there's other people program That's what I'm saying that there's a lot of people program to do this well. And this is kind of your work up on it. So it makes account for every single saw or i'm sorry or letter that's on this particular communication. So this breaks it down, shows you number by letter what it was used to, then anagram that message out. Now we also had the button letter, so we're just we're just really kind of picking up where we left off from the last couple of weeks in regards to

23:15 the letters that we've gone over. Can you read this button letter solved to us? Yeah, and uh so, if the Herst family is listening, Apparently Jack was very chummy with Randolph. I've said this this whole time. He's non surprised your message, but he's saying Randolph ass whole you know, he's trying to he's trying. It's appearing to me that these were supposed to be private coded messages because he's trying to get off of MK Ultra everything. So we did here we go hold on what Hold Hold on one second, because I want people to understand before you start reading this, you've discovered that you believe that these communications have been falsely portrayed at the wrong dates. So while this letter was purported to the public to have been written on June twenty sixth of nineteen seventy, you're actually finding that they were in the nineteen seventy four era versus the nineteen seventy and that they have just come back at some point in time and given us these false dates or made up envelopes with postmarks and things like that, in order to deter us from the actual timeline of when this stuff was occurring. Correct, I believe something like that. This looks like these are facsimiles, sorry, older versions of the machines. What's only the wealthy the military governments then had the ability to do. So, He's saying that. So when you see this, even online, all you're seeing is copies of what is said to be original scans. So scans are

24:51 you know, telegraph or telephone or whatever. Those are scans sent on a wire. So that's what I'm seeing here. I mean read this. It's actually it's actually dated August fifteenth, nineteen seventy four. Am. This time is for the morning. Some of the times it's going to be after midnight. The operation midnight anyways, facts says, AM morning fac simile to Randolph Asshole. Sorry, guys, anyways, I did try rin, which is Richard Nixon. Fact man, don't cut any President Richard Nixon resigned August eighth, nineteen seventy four. In spring, I sent eleven fact similes and circa the date of four twenty But this is four twenty seventy four Zodiac thirteenth cipher has my confidential underlined c I A nomanescio regarding where is remedy. So he's he's mad, tattle tale Frank Olson. Sorry, print San Francisco and New York files pause contact me on mission location on Phillips sixty six map darkroom in the eighty one oh one area pause, I need Cincinnati shimmeck perforations Franklin Washington series US Scott number three two two printed by the Bureau of Printing and Engraving.

26:19 Exclamation mark did Senator Prescott Bush Chip Bolan save any two cent unique eye cold stamps? He's question mark do you have any alcoholics? Anonymous phrase? Plus the I cold LSD drug is the nine the remedy. It's nine nine nine is a reverse of sixty sixty six, which is evil nine. It's reversed again anyways, and then he says to repeat UPI, which is United Press International asshole. MYNESO is in Zodiac thirteen cipher contact me at the area on the latitude longitude SFA area map the two eighty one O one area northeast San Jose. Reply if Prescott his son Magogue bush h that's George W.

27:14 H. Bush KGB communist Chip Boland did save I coult LSD after Operation Midnight? Modus tollans. I'll explain in a minute what that is because alcoholics anonymous phrase and the R ex drug on that stamp is the remedy to undo evil spell. David Frost to pay one million to IOU President Nixon for a one, which is top story, Jack tarrns, So why was it? What? My god? What it says? And references in New York are references to CIA houses that they were doing LSD and mind control or behavior control experiments.

28:03 And guy's name, George is escaping me now, but he was in charge of it, George hunter White. George. I'm trying to look at his name. He comes up a lot in this book, The Terrible. Yeah, Marge Hunter White and I started doing in New York in the Mission District, Yes, erect Telegraph Hill. Well, yeah, nine o one Mission Street. Mission Street is the location of the San Francisco Chronicle. I believe still is. And I got to say, if I remember correctly, briefly, Dennis even thought for a while that Jack was somehow working with that location, you know, because there was a time period where he was gone a lot in nineteen seventies. So you know, here he's he's saying contact him at nine to one Mission, but he's also going to UC Davis trying to get this I called the Evil Spell reversed. Well, so that's what I want to kind of let everybody know at this point in time, is that Jack had a dark room in his house from nineteen seventy to at least nineteen seventy two. Now I know you and I Harriet discussed the possibility of him continuing to have kept that house past that point, though Dennis only recalls him having that home up until nineteen seventy two on Doughburn Way, where he had a dark room down in his basement, which was probably one of the few houses that had a basement to begin with. But it's fitting right on

29:36 in with Jack because a he's talking about San Jose, he's talking about a dark room. Dennis already had admitted way back in the beginning that Jack had a dark room, and that really did not have any bearing on the Zodiac case because it didn't pertain to photographs like it didn't Black Dahlia. So to know that he had this dark room, Dennis had no way of knowing that that would actually fit in or be part of your souls. So that brings me back, That brings me back to the date sequence that this letter is written June twenty sixth of nineteen seventy. We know Jack had the home in San Jose with the dark room in it at that time, which would coincide with the timeframe, but we don't know that Jack had that house in nineteen seventy four, but he is definitely saying, come see me at the two to eighty one oh one area, which is the Santa Clara San Jose area.

30:26 What he's also saying in here is the reason about the dark room is he says repetitively that he got carbon copies of Frank Olsen's millions and millions of pages, apparently on versions of microfilm. So he's trying to he's trying to stop what's going on currently about the MK Ultra. And I think, you know when I'm going to go out on a limb and state that that's probably where they found a whole bunch of those files, because Jack is constantly saying this is circa the mom is the information bomb. Yeah. Now you also talked about three twenty two being a number for the Skull and Bones Society.

31:07 Yes, yep, and this particular stamp is number three two two. It came out, uh. And then it's what confirmed my solve all the more is it's saying what I had just found out recently that Skull and Bones George H. W. Bush was known from his time at I think it was Yale as mcgog as mcgog Wow, and so how that that that stuff just keeps coming up and almost says a confirmation. So now the last line says, David Frost to pay one million to I owe you President Nixon for a one story, so too, because yeah, explain that to him. Okay, Nixon. Nixon is totally broke. He's just quit and uh he's apparently heard from uh day David Frost, the famous interviewer, talk show host guy, Yeah, that he was to pay one million for the top of the line, a one story, which I got to say that Jack maybe doing a version of extortion here, like hello, there's a whole bunch of things that Nixon can talk about. Cooperate please now, so famous interview across to Nixon. They actually made a movie about it. Yeah. See, and if I understand correctly, he did get paid one million. Nixon was definitely broke by the time he got paid. He had to pay off a couple

32:37 hundred thousand to a lot of people, so he was broke, you know. So well, and then that brings us back to the Z thirty two solve, which you had additional solves to the Z thirty two, which I didn't pick up on last time. Basically, what we had gotten the last time was expedite or forward to John f or John on Fagio MK ultra Cia at Dow Inc. And that was Lauren Swearing's solved that you then took. I show you took his digraph system and then anagrammed to additional messages. Well, this is actually Jack's digraph system that Laurens Swearing and figured out. And then I adjusted just a couple of sections, and I said, this actually for me makes more sense. But you go on about what you found out about Well, well we'll get to that after we're done with your solves.

33:35 So one of my questions is, is one of your solves has said expedite forward to John F. Kennedy, Attorney General, which you presume to be brother documents respectfully in order MK Ultra Cia at Dow Chemical Inc. Now, my only question about that is that this letter written in nineteen seventy or if we're to believe that that's the timeframe of it, four, keep going it will even seventy four couldn't go to JFK's ag because Bobby Kennedy's dead already. No, it's the documents that are part of because what they were doing, apparently what Jack is doing trying to get involved with the CIA mk ultra that Bobby Kennedy started, my god, with going after these people in the nineteen fifties was somebody last named Little That. So there's a lot of things going on, communism and mk ultra, Cold War. So he became the ag.

34:35 But I think he's saying, send a whole bunch of these documents or gather them up because he had found out that there was some mk ultra CIA in theory at dow Chemical ink. Wow. Now you also found one that said Jack WT of seven CIA help, I had gotten cross or mad on mk ultra. What is that one mean? Oh my god, I think it's something seven the Secret seven. Yeahmanda miss seven. Okay, I think that that's it. So he's saying something about that, I think. But he's what he's saying, I've got I've gone mad, I'm on mk ultra.

35:22 And then he's saying how to help him? And he's at UC Davis And you heard have you heard Nolan of the mandomas seven? No? I have not Okay, that's another another thing to research. I get lost down all my rabbit holes, and I have lots of them. Is taking you down to the rabbit hole like uh, tripping on mushrooms and LSD and uh. That's why I'm not comfortable with doing this version. I like und with some amazing stuff just by anagramming. So well, and then your last message says help Jack Terrence of evan Cia after midnight going north to I eighty two w X crossing it I fifty. This would lead you, like you said, directly on into South Lake Tahoe or the Paradise Hotel, which we believe that Jack has moved himself to by this time. Yeah, something like that.

36:21 But it's also very close to where you see Davis. Is this within that vicinity? So yeah, I'm gonna say that the fifty and eighty split. Now, I don't know where it was actually that far back. I mean I didn't come to Sacramento until nineteen ninety one, but that split. But that split is approximately seven to eight miles, would you say, Nolan from Davis the fifty eighty split? Yeah ten miles? Yeah, yeah, maybe about ten miles. So it could very well have been in a location along that strip at some point, and it is very close to Davis Well. That brings us to the Fagio which we've been talking about. The phonetic spelling in which case Laurence swearingam It indicated that the expedite two John Fagio Cia mk Ultra Dow chemicals could either be Fagio Faggio or Fagio Fagio or Fagio fa Zio. I was able to actually find two individuals named John Fagio. It looks like they were born and died at different times. They would have they would have been alive obviously during this time. Both of them happened to be out of a Jersey and Maryland area. Not that that isn't a home run hit for you know, the ant Brax stuff and everything else. But I couldn't find any good information on these individuals other than the fact that they lived and died, So there was nothing there for me to really pull up or

37:52 have any information on. Now, the word Fazio is a completely different story. This one. I came up with a John Fazio who him and his brother Carl Fazio, purchased a chain of grocery stores with the Costa brothers, Sam Costa and I'm not recalling his brother's name at this point, but we'll come back to that. So basically in Cleveland, Ohio, which is another thing that was brought to my attention, because we know that there are letters written to Cleveland, Ohio by the Zodiac. We know that the Plaine Dealer, which is something I have heavily discussed in regards to it. It's promoting things like Robert Graysmith's book. So the Plaine Dealer was one of those reviews that was in his book that helped to sell it. So largely across the world. We've got the Ohio reference, and then we've got the Italians, which is exactly who we're about to talk about. So it says Cleveland, Ohio. During the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies, the name Fazio's was synonymous with grocery shopping in the Northeast Ohio. The opening of a new store in Northeast Ohio was greeted with newspaper articles extolling the European flavors and Fasio's bakery departments, gourmet specialties from around the world, and a large produce department. At the height of his grocery store empire in nineteen sixty nine, John Fazio's chain encompass two hundred and two stores in Ohio, Kentucky, Chicago, Illinois,

39:24 and Los Angeles, California. So here we're hammering down on some of these major areas. Another thing I found out about this is that eventually when everything went south for this man. And we're going to talk about why, to me looks like a perfect mob made man, and we'll talk about why I think that as we go through this. But his California stores were eventually sold to the owners of Albertsons, and that's how we got Albertsons in California. I thought that was interesting. I remember Albertsons. I haven't seen one in probably twenty thirty years, but I remember having shopped at them with my parents.

40:05 They still have Albertson's in Bakersfield that was down there recently, and there's an albert right right, but they've pretty much erased them all from the northern California area. Yeah, I don't see him around here. What I could find in twenty twenty three on Fisher Foods is that they still had two convenient locations. Now they had two hundred and two stores. At the height of his career, he was expanding into stop and shop supermarkets, into convenience stores. So here's that relation back to the zodiac in regards to picking up kids or victims from convenience stores. The payphone booth which we just talked about, the freaking, which was very interesting. It says the Fazio brothers, Carl and John, advertised another new store on May twenty first, nineteen sixty four.

40:51 This one was in Parma Heights. This year's a picture of mister Fazio and his first wife in the house that they purchased called Roundwood Manner in the early sixties. It says John Fazio was born in Cleveland, the youngest of three children. He worked on his father's fruit car then later dropped out of Alexander Hamilton High School to work in his father's small grocery store along with his brother Carl. Now, grocery stores were typically owned by the mob back then. You know, that's where they would launder money, that's where they would do all kinds of things. But John, Carl and their father Charles, opened their first store called Fazio's in the Cedarley district of Cleveland Heights. In the nineteen thirties, John fell for Anita, a Woolworths cashier, and they married in nineteen forty one, despite the opposition from both families. His family didn't like her because she wasn't Italian, and her family had the opposite objection about John said, I'm thinking a granddaughter. A daughter. But John, Carl and other investors purchased the then faltering fish Or Food chain in nineteen sixty five, and the sale expanded the company to one hundred and twenty stores.

41:54 That took a lot of money to do, so somebody coming from one menial grocery store to purchasing a train of one hundred and twenty. Granted it is done with the cost of partners, but again those guys are also Italian descent, so he did serve in World War Two. By nineteen sixty the business had grown to include Fazio's and Stopping Shop stores run by both John and Carl. John Fazio frequented his stores. He liked to keep up his customer service, and that kind of reminds me of the good old boy, right, the good old Italian mob wanting to save face, to make nice, to play pretty and get out there and schmooze people. It's just some things about this just kind of tickled me. I do see that he lived pretty much a lavish lifestyle based on what he was doing, you know, going on vacation, snowmobiling, pool table in the house, badminton on the backyard.

42:54 Like he was definitely living the life. Let's see what so John Fazio's fortunes slipped in the nineteen seventies when he narrowly escaped prison. It says for his role in a price fixing case involving Fisher Foods pick and pay and stop and shop. So now we have the price fixing that's going on, and now that takes me back to the mob once again. See, Fazio was forced to take an early retirement at Fisher's president and CEO in May of nineteen seventy nine. Rather than fight the board of directors, what would you have had to have done so bad that they would force you into retirement? He became honest. Honest or his face of the company was jeopardized by the dirty deeds of the company, and he was the flaw guy for that. But his brother just took over, so I don't understand why he was forced to retire if brother Carl's just going to pick up where he left off. This particular picture right here was accompanied in an article where the local grocers were being asked to explain why food prices in Cleveland exceeded those of Chicago and Los Angeles in nineteen seventy six, and John Fazzio is actually he was an interviewee in regards to this mess, but isn't later charged with these crimes until in the eighties, which really cracks me up. So who else but the person who's talking about price fixing or was doing price fixing ends up being the interview for the

44:29 plane dealer. He is right, watch us go here, because it gets better. Here he is with one of the Society National bank representatives, where they are portraying the bank representative as a shopper, while mister Fazzio is actually showing how they're using electronic machines to check out, and their intentions at this point is to they want to They're planning a partnership that would add limited banking services to dozen of Fasio supermarkets later that year. That's in nineteen seventy eight. I don't remember when we got like Wells Fargo in our safeways or in our bel airs, or when we actually had access to banking services inside of a grocery store, because it certainly wasn't in nineteen seventy eight. That's a lot of money, a lot of big connections, a lot of things that are going on in mylogy, the wire services so much. Yeah. So it says a non compete clause barred him from opening more grocery stores in the Cleveland area for several years, but later he and wife Terry, a former Fisher Foods personnel director, opened Jokes, a food and drug store in Willowick in nineteen eighty two. The comp continued running it after moving to Dallas.

45:43 In the nineteen eighties, John and Terry opened three deep discount stores that were the forerunners of Sam's Club in Costco. You guys like that. Yeah. He remained active in that business until two thousand, when he retired at age eighty. Let's see over that. So here's another stopping shop and grand opening and the huge press that it's receiving. Here's one of his first indictments, Fisher's California chain, which at forty six stores, was still relatively small, was fined five thousand in Los Angeles for fifteen charges of false advertising and one charge of mislabeling in July nineteen seventy seven. Fisher pleaded no contest, claiming that the infractions all stemmed from oversights, not deliberate deception. Okay. This, however, would not be the last time the grocery chain and its officials would be brought to court for charges such as these. Let's see it managed from grand opening second infraction. In the fall of nineteen eighty one, price fixing charges were brought against Fisher, contending that the company collaborated with First National Supermarkets, Inc. Parent of Pick and Pay stores, and the Association of Stop and Shop stores to price goods below costs and thereby force others out of business. Company was slapped with a five multimillion dollar lawsuits from individuals and companies.

47:05 Later that same year, a second antitrust suit was brought against Fisher and others by two nursing homes and a restaurant for fixing wholesale prices. Both cases enumerated infractions in the late nineteen seventies. The first case resulted in the largest consumer class action settlement of a price fixing case in US history. One million households in seven Northeast Ohio counties received twenty dollars in grocery coupons. John Fazio, who was president and CEO Fisher Foods when the violations occurred, was sentenced to five years of probation beginning in nineteen eighty two, but his sentence was commuted in nineteen eighty four. That's mob, I Reagan. Yeah, I'm hearing a lot. I mean, he's he had great speech writers, and he had some great time bariers. But something's wrong because I'm hearing a lot of bad things about Reagan. Well, they did say, let me see real quick if I can get this out, he says his Janie Basio said she remembers that when she there were long lines at her father's favorite Italian restaurant, a major d would appear and usher the family past waiting customers to a special table. She said, I'm thinking my dad is a king. Mob All right, guys, we are down to the last few seconds. I need to say goodbye to everybody. We will pick this up where we left off next week and continue on with these solves from Harriet. Thank you so much Nolan and Harriet being here next week. Have a great weekend. Yes,

48:40 stay safe, let's not get killed by the c I A okay, I just yes, Okay. If it's not, I'll check with one and i'll let you guys know. I'm gonna have to do some pre records anyways, everybody, have a great weekend. We'll you soon. Hey, thank you.